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Briseham
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Sorry, missed last part of my post: Finally, back to the SOJ depiction in SD: I have yet to be convinced that there is a neat, simple way to show this any better than the current SD depiction. Perhaps the way to think about it is that the thick arrow is the end of a notional longer SOJ path that has this arrow as the middle part of a dotted line from the current position to the overhead, positioning and descending, crossing the upwind numbers to join downwind, downwind, base and final The base end of this arrow still serves as useful reminder to maintain the right direction hwne positioning, especially if approaching the a/f from the dead side direction.
No ?
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Briseham
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1According to the UK CAA Skyway Code there are 5 join procedures: SOJ, DW, CW and Straight In. The CW join is a perfectly legitimate and useful join, and the manner in which SD illustrates the SOJ is in fact consistent with this i.e. a CW join, which may be thought of as the middle part of a SOJ i.e. crosswind traverse (othogonal to the runway) at circuit height and over the upwind numbers to join the downwind circuit leg. CAA diagrams there and in other documents can confuse as they can label "crosswind leg" for both a circuit rectangle and an illustration of the crosswind traverse of a SOJ. Should not SD's Approach tool also include CW in the join choices ? The base of the think arrow nicely reminds the pilot that it is prudent to be always turning in the circuit direction.Back to the SOJ:
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André
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+x+xThank you grahamb for your reply! I have already discussed this with my FI, actually several FIs, including going through the national VFR guide handbook. I haven’t found the answer to my questions, therefore my post here. But if different recommendations exist on how to do a standard overhead join in the different countries, I understand why SD has chosen to do it this way. What I have found so far is that Norway is adhering to recommendations from both FAA and CAA. Luftfartstilsynet (FAA/CAA of Norway) mentions and recommends the «standard overhead approach» in different texts, but only lists the typical approach as seen below (attached). If there are several different standard overhead approaches, I don’t understand how we can talk about a standard… I believe the “standard” Luftfartstilsynet is talking about is the same as in the UK / CA (attached). What I still have not figured out is how to manouver to get into this position if approaching the airport from a different direction, or eg. approaching as seen in the figure, but realizing that the active runway is in the opposite direction. In the latter case you are still overflying with the airport to your left at 500 ft above the pattern altitude, but you are not over the landing threshold, but over the departing threshold. How should you proceed in this case to enter the left crosswind? Left 180 direct dead side, descend turning left for left crosswind at pattern altitude? Seems OK to me, but I have never seen nor read about this anywhere, and that bugs me… I do understand if this discussion should be taken to a different forum, if so please advise. And to be clear, Norwegian publications first and foremost recommends that you follow local procedures as most ADs in Norway have these. I am talking about in those cases where no such procedures exists and I have to follow some general standards..
Standard Overhead Join as recommended by Norway, based on recommendations from CAA. What if I fly this approach only to realize that the active runway is in the opposite direction, how should I proceed to enter left crosswind? André, don't fall into the trap of overthinking this.
The standard UK overhead join is a big roundabout in the sky which you can join from any direction, and once you know the runway in use (i.e. at a deserted airfield have been able to see the windsock, and make a decision. If it's manned, or there is other traffic, you'll know anyway) you descend over the landing threshold to the dead side. If you need to change circuit direction, then while observing any local rules, you leave the overhead and rejoin in the correct direction. Diagrams like the one above serve to confuse because they imply you can only join from one direction.
Remember, SkyDemon is not there to direct you. It's there to offer information. You as Captain have to make the decisions and control the aircraft accordingly. You are right that my “issue” is more about the rules and individual countries standards, not the SkyDemon application =) I made this post on reddit which gave me a better understanding. My main issue I guess that I prefer understanding something 100%, and when I can’t get to the bottom of things, it bugs me… Eg. where the norwegian CAA recommends the Standard Overhead Join in certain circumstances, but fails to describe it thoroughly, and I can’t find any more info about it as I don’t know if they made up a new procedure just for Norway, or if it is copied from another country.. This reeally bugs me, be precise!!! But I’ll get over it 
Thank you all for your inputs!
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grahamb
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+xThank you grahamb for your reply! I have already discussed this with my FI, actually several FIs, including going through the national VFR guide handbook. I haven’t found the answer to my questions, therefore my post here. But if different recommendations exist on how to do a standard overhead join in the different countries, I understand why SD has chosen to do it this way. What I have found so far is that Norway is adhering to recommendations from both FAA and CAA. Luftfartstilsynet (FAA/CAA of Norway) mentions and recommends the «standard overhead approach» in different texts, but only lists the typical approach as seen below (attached). If there are several different standard overhead approaches, I don’t understand how we can talk about a standard… I believe the “standard” Luftfartstilsynet is talking about is the same as in the UK / CA (attached). What I still have not figured out is how to manouver to get into this position if approaching the airport from a different direction, or eg. approaching as seen in the figure, but realizing that the active runway is in the opposite direction. In the latter case you are still overflying with the airport to your left at 500 ft above the pattern altitude, but you are not over the landing threshold, but over the departing threshold. How should you proceed in this case to enter the left crosswind? Left 180 direct dead side, descend turning left for left crosswind at pattern altitude? Seems OK to me, but I have never seen nor read about this anywhere, and that bugs me… I do understand if this discussion should be taken to a different forum, if so please advise. And to be clear, Norwegian publications first and foremost recommends that you follow local procedures as most ADs in Norway have these. I am talking about in those cases where no such procedures exists and I have to follow some general standards..
Standard Overhead Join as recommended by Norway, based on recommendations from CAA. What if I fly this approach only to realize that the active runway is in the opposite direction, how should I proceed to enter left crosswind? André, don't fall into the trap of overthinking this.
The standard UK overhead join is a big roundabout in the sky which you can join from any direction, and once you know the runway in use (i.e. at a deserted airfield have been able to see the windsock, and make a decision. If it's manned, or there is other traffic, you'll know anyway) you descend over the landing threshold to the dead side. If you need to change circuit direction, then while observing any local rules, you leave the overhead and rejoin in the correct direction. Diagrams like the one above serve to confuse because they imply you can only join from one direction.
Remember, SkyDemon is not there to direct you. It's there to offer information. You as Captain have to make the decisions and control the aircraft accordingly.
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André
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Thank you grahamb for your reply! I have already discussed this with my FI, actually several FIs, including going through the national VFR guide handbook. I haven’t found the answer to my questions, therefore my post here. But if different recommendations exist on how to do a standard overhead join in the different countries, I understand why SD has chosen to do it this way. What I have found so far is that Norway is adhering to recommendations from both FAA and CAA. Luftfartstilsynet (FAA/CAA of Norway) mentions and recommends the «standard overhead approach» in different texts, but only lists the typical approach as seen below (attached). If there are several different standard overhead approaches, I don’t understand how we can talk about a standard… I believe the “standard” Luftfartstilsynet is talking about is the same as in the UK / CA (attached). What I still have not figured out is how to manouver to get into this position if approaching the airport from a different direction, or eg. approaching as seen in the figure, but realizing that the active runway is in the opposite direction. In the latter case you are still overflying with the airport to your left at 500 ft above the pattern altitude, but you are not over the landing threshold, but over the departing threshold. How should you proceed in this case to enter the left crosswind? Left 180 direct dead side, descend turning left for left crosswind at pattern altitude? Seems OK to me, but I have never seen nor read about this anywhere, and that bugs me… I do understand if this discussion should be taken to a different forum, if so please advise. And to be clear, Norwegian publications first and foremost recommends that you follow local procedures as most ADs in Norway have these. I am talking about in those cases where no such procedures exists and I have to follow some general standards..
Standard Overhead Join as recommended by Norway, based on recommendations from CAA. What if I fly this approach only to realize that the active runway is in the opposite direction, how should I proceed to enter left crosswind?
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grahamb
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+xHi! I am a PPL-A student in Norway and the essence of this very topic has been difficult for me to grasp as there seems to be different opinions on how to do this procedure. My post is oriented more towards how to do a correct standard overhead join (SOJ), rather than how SkyDemon depicts it in the app. After all, if there are different ways of flying the SOJ, obviously SkyDemon (SD) can’t know how you are executing the SOJ procedure.
Reading through the post I must say my interpretation on how to execute the standard overhead join (SOJ) aligns with the understanding of ChrisB. Tim Dawson writes that it is not common to execute the SOJ from the live side if arriving from the dead/non-traffic side, but isn’t this a pilot error? Shouldn’t the SOJ always be flown as per definition? I don’t see the point of doing a SOJ if it is not as per definition, changing it up arguably attenuates the very point of a standardization, enhancing aviation safety through reproducibility and predictability. The post from David Jonstone is an example.
However, I definitely see that it is easier to just descend to pattern altitude immediately if arriving on the dead side, but now it is my understanding that you are not doing a standard overhead join, rather a modified overhead join. Please correct me if I am wrong!
So if you don’t mind a question from a PPL-a student with no practical experience on how to perform a SOJ, are we disagreeing on how to perform this procedure? Or do we agree on how it is done, but do not adhere to the SOJ procedure as per definition when actually executing it?
I just found this link explaining the SOJ procedure. Note the two diagrams. Do we agree that this is the correct way of doing it, every time?
So I guess there are several questions: Q1: are there different published standards on how to do this, eg. from EASA/Europe? Q2: how do you execute this procedure if different from the published standard? Q3: if there is one defined way of performing the SOJ, would it be better if SD changed the pink arrow to indicate arrival from the live side, 180 dgr turn with descent at the dead side before joining the pattern?
Please enlighten me and help me do this correctly =) Thank you very much!
Sources:
André,
The simple answer is that different countries have different preferred methods for joining the circuit - for example a French overhead join is different to a UK one, and SD's depiction is not really intended to give you any more than a reminder on which way to turn and when to descend. Even that may not apply in your locale.
You are a student, so discuss this with your instructor, and/or look in your Flying Training reference books, then see how SD can be applied for your local method.
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André
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Hi! I am a PPL-A student in Norway and the essence of this very topic has been difficult for me to grasp as there seems to be different opinions on how to do this procedure. My post is oriented more towards how to do a correct standard overhead join (SOJ), rather than how SkyDemon depicts it in the app. After all, if there are different ways of flying the SOJ, obviously SkyDemon (SD) can’t know how you are executing the SOJ procedure.
Reading through the post I must say my interpretation on how to execute the standard overhead join (SOJ) aligns with the understanding of ChrisB. Tim Dawson writes that it is not common to execute the SOJ from the live side if arriving from the dead/non-traffic side, but isn’t this a pilot error? Shouldn’t the SOJ always be flown as per definition? I don’t see the point of doing a SOJ if it is not as per definition, changing it up arguably attenuates the very point of a standardization, enhancing aviation safety through reproducibility and predictability. The post from David Jonstone is an example.
However, I definitely see that it is easier to just descend to pattern altitude immediately if arriving on the dead side, but now it is my understanding that you are not doing a standard overhead join, rather a modified overhead join. Please correct me if I am wrong!
So if you don’t mind a question from a PPL-a student with no practical experience on how to perform a SOJ, are we disagreeing on how to perform this procedure? Or do we agree on how it is done, but do not adhere to the SOJ procedure as per definition when actually executing it?
I just found this link explaining the SOJ procedure. Note the two diagrams. Do we agree that this is the correct way of doing it, every time?
So I guess there are several questions: Q1: are there different published standards on how to do this, eg. from EASA/Europe? Q2: how do you execute this procedure if different from the published standard? Q3: if there is one defined way of performing the SOJ, would it be better if SD changed the pink arrow to indicate arrival from the live side, 180 dgr turn with descent at the dead side before joining the pattern?
Please enlighten me and help me do this correctly =) Thank you very much!
Sources:
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JSAG
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David, that's a good point about confusion in overhead joins. The best advice from my instructor was if the circuit is rt handed always have the rwy on your right.
So as you approach the airfield, from whatever direction, have it to the rt of your nose, as you approach the overhead join have the rwy on your right and keep it on your right for deadside descent and obviously crosswind, downwind and base. Similarly if the circuit is left hand all the above but to the left hand side.
Once you've established the orientation of the circuit, left or right, and your initial approach is left or right the rest just flows.
It even helps the difficult approach from the deadside or even the final side. Say you are approaching from the deadside or final side of a left hand circuit, if you always keep the rwy to your left at 1300' above curcuit ht, flying round the field to the point where you descend and turn left into the SD purple arrow at 1000' above circuit ht you cannot conflict with anyone ahead of you.
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russellp
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I’ve always thought that the overhead join arrow should be a full U shape extending back as far as the downwind numbers for full clarity, however knowing this negates the need for it to be displayed that way, you simply have to know that it needs extending. If approaching from the dead side the correct point to join the roundabout in the sky is over the upwind numbers at ohj height and then circle to the downwind numbers without losing height before commencing dead side descent over the downwind numbers. No-one should need more than the runway length for a dead side descent. I guess extending to a full U would require SD to make a stand on the often controversial point about whether the dead side descent should start over the numbers (as most of us were taught) or nearly a mile away as depicted in the CAA diagrams above!
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Tony N
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+xThe roundabout concept makes sense, so its in the same direction as the circuit at 2000ft, everyone enters at whatever position suits them but drops out of it when they reach dead-side. Presumably if you happen to arrive on the dead-side you can just descend as you go through the deadside and slot in like when you join the circuit. What if you don't know the circuit direction, perhaps if its unmanned or you need to see the big square runway direction sign?
Its the first I have heard of tis method despite the nav training and reading all the PPL books, I wonder how many people do this and how many people do something entirely different. Chris, Remember that it should be 2000 ft above airfield height. So at somewhere like Compton Abbas you are overhead at something like 2850 ft AMSL! If you arrive at an unmanned airfield, you would already be self-briefed as to the "preferred" circuit direction! Just keep at the joining altitude until you have figured out wind direction and runway in use. I sometimes use Windy to get an indication of the surface wind at my destination, should the radio be unmanned or non-existent. Tony
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