Standard overhead joins wrong...?

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Standard overhead joins wrong...?

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ChrisB	C ChrisB posted 9/5/2022 12:33:07 PM HOT Topic Details Share Topic
C Group: Forum Members Posts: 5, Visits: 11	Having received the runway in use and circuit direction when close to an airfield I do some hurried mental gymnastics to work out how to approach for a standard overhead join. I recently discovered the SD “Make Approach” function and was very pleased to see there is a “Standard Overhead” join option. The first time I used it in the air was arriving at Enstone. I selected Make Approach, Runway 26, Standard Overhead. A nice big purple arrow appeared “for guidance on where to join” (to quote the SD video tutorial). I started heading towards the arrow, but after even more hurried mental gymnastics realised I would be joining from the opposite direction to that required and made corrections. I have since used the same function arriving at other airfields and they are all wrong. According to SD a standard overhead join is approached from the dead side, with descent on the live side to join the circuit. According to the CAA a correct standard overhead join is approached from the live side, with descent on the dead side to join the circuit on the crosswind leg. This is more than just misleading it is plain wrong. At worst, a pilot following SD’s guidance would conflict with a pilot doing a ‘correct’ overhead join. At best he would be joining high on the downwind leg and making a total hash of the circuit. I’ve attached below a screenshot from SD and a CAA diagram of a standard overhead join to illustrate my point. Comments welcome – is there something I’m missing here? Chris
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André	André posted 7/17/2024 11:32:06 AM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 24, Visits: 58	Thank you grahamb for your reply! I have already discussed this with my FI, actually several FIs, including going through the national VFR guide handbook. I haven’t found the answer to my questions, therefore my post here. But if different recommendations exist on how to do a standard overhead join in the different countries, I understand why SD has chosen to do it this way. What I have found so far is that Norway is adhering to recommendations from both FAA and CAA. Luftfartstilsynet (FAA/CAA of Norway) mentions and recommends the «standard overhead approach» in different texts, but only lists the typical approach as seen below (attached). If there are several different standard overhead approaches, I don’t understand how we can talk about a standard… I believe the “standard” Luftfartstilsynet is talking about is the same as in the UK / CA (attached). What I still have not figured out is how to manouver to get into this position if approaching the airport from a different direction, or eg. approaching as seen in the figure, but realizing that the active runway is in the opposite direction. In the latter case you are still overflying with the airport to your left at 500 ft above the pattern altitude, but you are not over the landing threshold, but over the departing threshold. How should you proceed in this case to enter the left crosswind? Left 180 direct dead side, descend turning left for left crosswind at pattern altitude? Seems OK to me, but I have never seen nor read about this anywhere, and that bugs me… I do understand if this discussion should be taken to a different forum, if so please advise. And to be clear, Norwegian publications first and foremost recommends that you follow local procedures as most ADs in Norway have these. I am talking about in those cases where no such procedures exists and I have to follow some general standards.. Standard Overhead Join as recommended by Norway, based on recommendations from CAA. What if I fly this approach only to realize that the active runway is in the opposite direction, how should I proceed to enter left crosswind?
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grahamb	grahamb posted 7/17/2024 5:39:48 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 608, Visits: 29K	+x André - 7/17/2024 11:32:06 AM Thank you grahamb for your reply! I have already discussed this with my FI, actually several FIs, including going through the national VFR guide handbook. I haven’t found the answer to my questions, therefore my post here. But if different recommendations exist on how to do a standard overhead join in the different countries, I understand why SD has chosen to do it this way. What I have found so far is that Norway is adhering to recommendations from both FAA and CAA. Luftfartstilsynet (FAA/CAA of Norway) mentions and recommends the «standard overhead approach» in different texts, but only lists the typical approach as seen below (attached). If there are several different standard overhead approaches, I don’t understand how we can talk about a standard… I believe the “standard” Luftfartstilsynet is talking about is the same as in the UK / CA (attached). What I still have not figured out is how to manouver to get into this position if approaching the airport from a different direction, or eg. approaching as seen in the figure, but realizing that the active runway is in the opposite direction. In the latter case you are still overflying with the airport to your left at 500 ft above the pattern altitude, but you are not over the landing threshold, but over the departing threshold. How should you proceed in this case to enter the left crosswind? Left 180 direct dead side, descend turning left for left crosswind at pattern altitude? Seems OK to me, but I have never seen nor read about this anywhere, and that bugs me… I do understand if this discussion should be taken to a different forum, if so please advise. And to be clear, Norwegian publications first and foremost recommends that you follow local procedures as most ADs in Norway have these. I am talking about in those cases where no such procedures exists and I have to follow some general standards.. Standard Overhead Join as recommended by Norway, based on recommendations from CAA. What if I fly this approach only to realize that the active runway is in the opposite direction, how should I proceed to enter left crosswind? André, don't fall into the trap of overthinking this. The standard UK overhead join is a big roundabout in the sky which you can join from any direction, and once you know the runway in use (i.e. at a deserted airfield have been able to see the windsock, and make a decision. If it's manned, or there is other traffic, you'll know anyway) you descend over the landing threshold to the dead side. If you need to change circuit direction, then while observing any local rules, you leave the overhead and rejoin in the correct direction. Diagrams like the one above serve to confuse because they imply you can only join from one direction. Remember, SkyDemon is not there to direct you. It's there to offer information. You as Captain have to make the decisions and control the aircraft accordingly.
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André	André posted 7/20/2024 7:14:39 AM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 24, Visits: 58	+x grahamb - 7/17/2024 5:39:48 PM +x André - 7/17/2024 11:32:06 AM Thank you grahamb for your reply! I have already discussed this with my FI, actually several FIs, including going through the national VFR guide handbook. I haven’t found the answer to my questions, therefore my post here. But if different recommendations exist on how to do a standard overhead join in the different countries, I understand why SD has chosen to do it this way. What I have found so far is that Norway is adhering to recommendations from both FAA and CAA. Luftfartstilsynet (FAA/CAA of Norway) mentions and recommends the «standard overhead approach» in different texts, but only lists the typical approach as seen below (attached). If there are several different standard overhead approaches, I don’t understand how we can talk about a standard… I believe the “standard” Luftfartstilsynet is talking about is the same as in the UK / CA (attached). What I still have not figured out is how to manouver to get into this position if approaching the airport from a different direction, or eg. approaching as seen in the figure, but realizing that the active runway is in the opposite direction. In the latter case you are still overflying with the airport to your left at 500 ft above the pattern altitude, but you are not over the landing threshold, but over the departing threshold. How should you proceed in this case to enter the left crosswind? Left 180 direct dead side, descend turning left for left crosswind at pattern altitude? Seems OK to me, but I have never seen nor read about this anywhere, and that bugs me… I do understand if this discussion should be taken to a different forum, if so please advise. And to be clear, Norwegian publications first and foremost recommends that you follow local procedures as most ADs in Norway have these. I am talking about in those cases where no such procedures exists and I have to follow some general standards.. Standard Overhead Join as recommended by Norway, based on recommendations from CAA. What if I fly this approach only to realize that the active runway is in the opposite direction, how should I proceed to enter left crosswind? André, don't fall into the trap of overthinking this. The standard UK overhead join is a big roundabout in the sky which you can join from any direction, and once you know the runway in use (i.e. at a deserted airfield have been able to see the windsock, and make a decision. If it's manned, or there is other traffic, you'll know anyway) you descend over the landing threshold to the dead side. If you need to change circuit direction, then while observing any local rules, you leave the overhead and rejoin in the correct direction. Diagrams like the one above serve to confuse because they imply you can only join from one direction. Remember, SkyDemon is not there to direct you. It's there to offer information. You as Captain have to make the decisions and control the aircraft accordingly. You are right that my “issue” is more about the rules and individual countries standards, not the SkyDemon application =) I made this post on reddit which gave me a better understanding. My main issue I guess that I prefer understanding something 100%, and when I can’t get to the bottom of things, it bugs me… Eg. where the norwegian CAA recommends the Standard Overhead Join in certain circumstances, but fails to describe it thoroughly, and I can’t find any more info about it as I don’t know if they made up a new procedure just for Norway, or if it is copied from another country.. This reeally bugs me, be precise!!! But I’ll get over it Thank you all for your inputs!
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