|
s1l3ntgl1d3r
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 7,
Visits: 0
|
Hi I am in the process of getting my PPL in Switzerland. After about 20hrs I did my second navigation flight last friday. I really like to learn to navigate only with the ICAO map at first, but I tried Skydemon the other day and I must say it is really great as a planing tool. Here in Switzerland the airspace is really tight and we have lots of TMAs and almost during every flight we need a clearance to fly through them. To ask for the clearance it is really important to know the position of the aircraft, and due to the fact that the airspace is so small, the position of the aircraft has to be precise, my biggest problem with SD is that lots of names of "big" towns are missing, which in fact makes SD not usable for me at the moment. I have read that lots of Swiss pilots have the same issue but I don't want to give up SD as it looks to be a promissing APP. Is there a way to add the names that can be found on the ICAO map? Thank you for your help. Regards, Max Here an example of what I mean: ICAO Map:  SD view: ( I have highlighted some of the cities for which SD doesnt show a name.)  Here a more detailed shot of the ICAO Map: 
|
|
|
|
|
Tony N
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 361,
Visits: 2.6K
|
There was a discussion a few months ago about a similar issue for pilots in the UK. SD was displaying "current aircraft position" relative to the names of small towns and locations which weren't recognized by ATC units. Tim changed the algorithm to display "current" position info relative to larger towns and VRPs etc.
Perhaps a similar issue for Swiss pilots?
Or perhaps an issue with the map data for Switzerland?
Tony
|
|
|
|
|
s1l3ntgl1d3r
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 7,
Visits: 0
|
HI I think I was not precise enough in my question. The issue is that names of relatevely big towns are missing on the SD chart that are present on the ICAO map. Switzerland is so small and we need the names of the smaller towns to give the controller a precise location. I mean in the end its just a request to the developers of SD to have the same names as the ICAO Chart, then they would sell much more SD here in Switzerland as they are really precise and prefer other products due to this issue. Here another printscreen from SD. The towns in green are labeled in SD with their name, but the one next to it are not. For example the town ZUG is visible on SD but the neighbour town BAAR is not labeled in SD.  Here the same detailed view of the ICAO Map as you can see the two towns which i took in this example are marked and recognizable.  Hope this helped to make my question a little preciser. Regards, Max
|
|
|
|
|
Tim Dawson
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 8.2K,
Visits: 9.5K
|
I have attached a screenshot of SkyDemon in that region at 250k scale. I think we label plenty of towns. Are you navigating at an even larger map scale than this? Your screenshot looks almost like it's at 100k; perhaps you're flying a helicopter? I'm afraid we are not in the business of simply copying other charts. The cartographers who created the 500k Switzerland chart you are comparing with have made their own decisions about which towns to name at their fixed scale; SkyDemon supports many different scales but we cannot include small villages or even larger towns when they're right next to other (even larger) towns whose labels have already been included. We did review this in September last year and were able to include many more towns in Switzerland by switching data provider. At the moment when I look at the map at 250k zoom scale, like the screenshot I am attaching, I can see that there isn't really enough room for more town labels. 
|
|
|
|
|
s1l3ntgl1d3r
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 7,
Visits: 0
|
+xI have attached a screenshot of SkyDemon in that region at 250k scale. I think we label plenty of towns. Are you navigating at an even larger map scale than this? Your screenshot looks almost like it's at 100k; perhaps you're flying a helicopter? I'm afraid we are not in the business of simply copying other charts. The cartographers who created the 500k Switzerland chart you are comparing with have made their own decisions about which towns to name at their fixed scale; SkyDemon supports many different scales but we cannot include small villages or even larger towns when they're right next to other (even larger) towns whose labels have already been included. We did review this in September last year and were able to include many more towns in Switzerland by switching data provider. At the moment when I look at the map at 250k zoom scale, like the screenshot I am attaching, I can see that there isn't really enough room for more town labels. Hi Tim Thank you really much that you took the time to answer my question. I really like SD and I will keep my subscription for the moment. You asked what kind of Chart I am using vor VFR navigation? It is the Zürich Area Chart ICAO - 1:250000 (GND until FL 195). It would be great if the map would adapt to the "zoom level" and show the same names as this chart. This "issue" is known under VFR Pilots and is holding back a lot of customers to use SD here in Switzerland. Thank you anyways for your kind support in this matter! Regards Max
|
|
|
|
|
Tim Dawson
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 8.2K,
Visits: 9.5K
|
We do adapt to the zoom level, but the town selection is an algorithm based upon population of the town; we cannot simply copy what another cartographer has done on an existing product. The problem is not simply one of copyright: if ATC want pilots to report at a specific place, that place should really be an officially published VRP or at least mentioned in the AIP.
Having said all that, we do have plans to enable more smaller towns to appear in our maps at high zoom levels, but we are not there yet. Hopefully later this year.
|
|
|
|
|
Vladimir Vician
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1,
Visits: 0
|
+xWe do adapt to the zoom level, but the town selection is an algorithm based upon population of the town; we cannot simply copy what another cartographer has done on an existing product. The problem is not simply one of copyright: if ATC want pilots to report at a specific place, that place should really be an officially published VRP or at least mentioned in the AIP. Having said all that, we do have plans to enable more smaller towns to appear in our maps at high zoom levels, but we are not there yet. Hopefully later this year. Hope this is on the priority list. Because, i need to use another product to be able to report my position !!!. Anyways SD is great product. And I like it. This is last think... More cities names on zoomed map, or be able to custom set density of cities names or higher density along planed route. Hope you plan to incerase density globaly, as I flying in slovakia.
|
|
|
|
|
s1l3ntgl1d3r
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 7,
Visits: 0
|
Hi Tim
I am really impressed by how much effort you put in satisfying every customer that is interested in SD. I really like your product, I now use it to plan my flights and as a backup I use an ICAO map. The "issue" I have with the map, is a minor thing but it gets in the way of reccomending your product to all my swiss collegues.
I hope you can find a solution for your maps, as the rest of the appl is really cool.
Regards
Max
|
|
|
|
|
Tim Dawson
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 8.2K,
Visits: 9.5K
|
Please feel free to tell us exactly where you were, and how the position offered by SkyDemon was insufficient.
|
|
|
|
|
Chris_LSZO
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 107,
Visits: 149
|
Often in Switzerland a controller say to me: report village xyz. This mean a village shown at the ICAO map. Its not nice to me, if I can't see this village in Skydemon...
Because this, for me its very important to have the same villages in Skydemon like on the ICAO chart.
Chris
|
|
|
|
|
Tim Dawson
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 8.2K,
Visits: 9.5K
|
If you want the ICAO chart, then I would suggest using it. I hope it is clear why we cannot take somebody else's chart and copy all the villages from it, and apply that to our 500k zoom level. Villages are not aeronautical data and there are many charts out there in use other than the ICAO 500k one.
In nearly every other country, if ATC want you to report somewhere or relative to somewhere, they will use a VRP. That's what VRPs are for.
|
|
|
|
|
s1l3ntgl1d3r
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 7,
Visits: 0
|
Hi Tim and all
Thank you for keeping this thread alive and taking the time to answer my question. I now have almost 45hrs and got to fly my first solo cross country flight. Here in Switzerland we all train to fly with the Standard ICAO Map, and iPads and moving maps are usually not allowed in basic training, what you do once you have a license is your thing but I always speak to more experienced pilots here and show them the capabilities of SD and they are all really interested. For example the NOTAM system in SD is really cool, even though i am not allowed to use SD in the Air i use SD to "check" my Flightplan and the NOTAM System is just great to visualize active Restricted Zones or Danger Areas. But usually pilots come back to me after trying SD in the Air all with the same feedback, the map is not detailed enough for Swiss Standards, and they all go to Jeppesen, I have tried that product as well but I find SD much better and with a bigger scope of functions. The flight prep is much much better on SD, but the map in Jeppesen kicks some you know what.
I have heard that some Swiss users tried to contact you in this regards, offering help but did not get any feedback. I am pretty sure that adding a few important city names can not be so difficult. I am now adding special waypoints to my map manually but this is not really a solution in my opinion.
Regards
Max
|
|
|
|
|
ckurz7000
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 538,
Visits: 2.2K
|
I am from Austria and haven't flown in Switzerland yet. However, I would find it disturbing if a controller asked me to report some small town which isn't an official reporting point published in the AIP. Aeronautics is supposed to be international and I detest local regulations that deviate from the rules in general use. It makes flying internationally for general aviation pilots so much harder!
Tim's points are valid: the ICAO chart is only one of many charts used for flying in Switzerland. I am positive that they don't all show the same small towns. And an interactive, electronic vector chart has the big advantage of being dynamically created.
If a controller asked me to report an unfamiliar town, I would simply reply "Unfamiliar with reporting point." It is upon him to use standard reference points for position reports.
And, finally, you can create your own custom VRPs in SD.
Greetings, -- Chris.
|
|
|
|
|
Tim Dawson
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 8.2K,
Visits: 9.5K
|
We always respond to emails. Perhaps those users would like to let you know the date and time of their emails so that I can check.
Switzerland is one of the countries in which we are most popular, so I have trouble reconciling your feedback above with our actual usage. Unless people are using two products at once, which doesn't seem likely on a large scale.
|
|
|
|