Natural Protected Areas Austria

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Natural Protected Areas Austria

Author	Message
Tim Dawson	Tim Dawson posted 9/25/2015 9:26:40 AM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 8K, Visits: 9.1K	I am still following this up. Austrocontrol referred us to the Federal Ministry of Transport, Innovation and Technology who confirmed the email above. They have further referred me to the Aeroclub. What seems very clear is that legally, there is no requirement to avoid the national parks. What is also clear is that this is not clear to a lot of people, and various other chart producers have elected to include their boundaries in their charts so presumably pilots can make up their own minds.
	Reply Like 50
ckurz7000	ckurz7000 posted 9/28/2015 8:39:15 AM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 538, Visits: 2.2K	Being native Austrian I can attest to the confusing situation with natural reserves in Austria vis-a-vis general aviation. What you have to keep in mind is that Austria is different. Being to the south and east of Germany, we have evolved a life style somewhere in the middle between the right/wrong, white/black and total laissez faire. The stereotypical Austrian has learned to live with various shades of grey and abhors absolutes of black and white. This is neither good nor bad, simply different. It shows in this kind of regulation. Nothing is really clear, it is all more or less left to the descretion of the individual pilot. Everybody is afraid that someone might actually upset this fragile truce between various authorities and the general public. It works as long as nobody looks too closely and doesn't try to pin things down. I apologize to all Austrians I might have offended. But, being one myself, I feel entitled to this post. And what's even more, one can actually learn to like it...to a degree... -- Chris.
	Reply Like 52
Oliver Voigt	Oliver Voigt posted 9/28/2015 9:15:13 AM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 28, Visits: 150	Hallo Chris, for that letter you get my high respect!! I live in Bavaria and i was a little familiar with that rules. Certainly, that situation was not so fine and less helpfully. Maybe Skydemon has the power (with thousand of licenses and pilots in the background) to found a solution in cooperation with Austrocontol to avoid airspace-injuries in the future! Great thanks for that words!
	Reply Like 61
Chris_LSZO	Chris_LSZO posted 5/16/2017 10:28:17 AM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 107, Visits: 149	+x Tim Dawson - 9/24/2015 10:26:21 AM Their reply, as promised. Thank you for your questions concerning national parks in Austria! This question is asked by customers many times and I hope I can clarify the situation for you. First of all national parks do exist in Austria. They are regulated by law on the administrative level of Austrian provinces. So you would have to check the law of the 9 provinces of Austria. In contrast aeronautical facts are issued by the federal government of Austria. So in 2009 the federal government of Austria (CAA) asked all provinces to state their needs concerning the definition of these areas for aeronautical purposes and instructed Austro Control to remove the information from all official aeronautical publications. Since then the governments of the provinces were asked several times (as far as I know) to state their needs so they can be reflected in Austrain federal law and continuative be published in a way used in international aviation (e.g. IAIP). Currently the restricted areas LO R 16 and LO R 18 are the only areas that are published because of environmental reasons although there is no national park defined. The Austrian federal law concerning airspace issues is usually amended once a year but until the provinces do not provide the information to the federal government this information is not published and is missing in all official products. The Austrian AeroClub is aware of the situation too and maybe they can provide you with more details concerning this topic. We know that for the user/pilot this situation is disadvantageous but Austro Control has to follow the instructions of the CAA of Austria. Just for Info: At Easy VFR ‌the protected areas are visible with the right dimensions and heights (16500 ft MSL)... ‌ In my opinion Skydemon have to do it too, its very ‌expensive to fly into them!!! Chris‌‌ Edited 5/16/2017 10:28:17 AM by Chris_LSZO
	Reply Like 38
Tim Dawson	Tim Dawson posted 5/16/2017 12:40:46 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 8K, Visits: 9.1K	We added them years ago, Chris.
	Reply Like 49
Chris_LSZO	Chris_LSZO posted 5/16/2017 1:05:12 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 107, Visits: 149	+x Tim Dawson - 5/16/2017 12:40:46 PM We added them years ago, Chris. Yes, its added but with the wrong altitude (1500ft AGL)... ‌ Chris‌
	Reply Like 32
Tim Dawson	Tim Dawson posted 5/16/2017 1:59:07 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 8K, Visits: 9.1K	Thank you for clarifying your point. Could you say why you think the limits we show are incorrect?
	Reply Like 33
Chris_LSZO	Chris_LSZO posted 5/16/2017 3:01:21 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 107, Visits: 149	+x Tim Dawson - 5/16/2017 1:59:07 PM Thank you for clarifying your point. Could you say why you think the limits we show are incorrect? +x Its the same like in 2015. http://forums.skydemon.aero/FindPost17169.aspx The first linked PDF show the min. heights at every protected area (example "Hohe Tauern"= 5000m MSL). I know, its not written in the AIP, but it doesn't matter, you have to pay, if you fly in without permission. Chris‌‌ Edited 5/16/2017 3:01:21 PM by Chris_LSZO
	Reply Like 47
Tim Dawson	Tim Dawson posted 5/17/2017 2:23:52 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 8K, Visits: 9.1K	So the rumour goes. For a quiet life, I will amend the upper boundaries in our data and see if anyone complains. There remains no legal reason for pilots to avoid the areas at all, though.
	Reply Like 51
ckurz7000	ckurz7000 posted 5/17/2017 2:39:26 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 538, Visits: 2.2K	+x Chris_LSZO - 5/16/2017 3:01:21 PM +x Tim Dawson - 5/16/2017 1:59:07 PM Thank you for clarifying your point. Could you say why you think the limits we show are incorrect? +x Its the same like in 2015. http://forums.skydemon.aero/FindPost17169.aspx The first linked PDF show the min. heights at every protected area (example "Hohe Tauern"= 5000m MSL). I know, its not written in the AIP, but it doesn't matter, you have to pay, if you fly in without permission. Chris‌‌ It only takes one person to fight this out in court. It will be an easy win because international aviation law supercedes national law in this respect: if it's not in the AIP then you're not supposed to adhere to it. How can the federal state of, say Tyrol, expect some general aviation pilot to check local regulations (which are only available in German and not promulgated in a general accepted form in the aviation community) to adhere to their local regulations??? Austro Control itself has asked the states to name those areas to be included in the AIP. Hitherto they have not received a reply. Case closed. -- Chris.‌‌
	Reply Like 57