|
grahamb
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 579,
Visits: 27K
|
+xHi! I am a PPL-A student in Norway and the essence of this very topic has been difficult for me to grasp as there seems to be different opinions on how to do this procedure. My post is oriented more towards how to do a correct standard overhead join (SOJ), rather than how SkyDemon depicts it in the app. After all, if there are different ways of flying the SOJ, obviously SkyDemon (SD) can’t know how you are executing the SOJ procedure.
Reading through the post I must say my interpretation on how to execute the standard overhead join (SOJ) aligns with the understanding of ChrisB. Tim Dawson writes that it is not common to execute the SOJ from the live side if arriving from the dead/non-traffic side, but isn’t this a pilot error? Shouldn’t the SOJ always be flown as per definition? I don’t see the point of doing a SOJ if it is not as per definition, changing it up arguably attenuates the very point of a standardization, enhancing aviation safety through reproducibility and predictability. The post from David Jonstone is an example.
However, I definitely see that it is easier to just descend to pattern altitude immediately if arriving on the dead side, but now it is my understanding that you are not doing a standard overhead join, rather a modified overhead join. Please correct me if I am wrong!
So if you don’t mind a question from a PPL-a student with no practical experience on how to perform a SOJ, are we disagreeing on how to perform this procedure? Or do we agree on how it is done, but do not adhere to the SOJ procedure as per definition when actually executing it?
I just found this link explaining the SOJ procedure. Note the two diagrams. Do we agree that this is the correct way of doing it, every time?
So I guess there are several questions: Q1: are there different published standards on how to do this, eg. from EASA/Europe? Q2: how do you execute this procedure if different from the published standard? Q3: if there is one defined way of performing the SOJ, would it be better if SD changed the pink arrow to indicate arrival from the live side, 180 dgr turn with descent at the dead side before joining the pattern?
Please enlighten me and help me do this correctly =) Thank you very much!
Sources:
André,
The simple answer is that different countries have different preferred methods for joining the circuit - for example a French overhead join is different to a UK one, and SD's depiction is not really intended to give you any more than a reminder on which way to turn and when to descend. Even that may not apply in your locale.
You are a student, so discuss this with your instructor, and/or look in your Flying Training reference books, then see how SD can be applied for your local method.
|
|
|
|
|
André
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 24,
Visits: 58
|
Thank you grahamb for your reply! I have already discussed this with my FI, actually several FIs, including going through the national VFR guide handbook. I haven’t found the answer to my questions, therefore my post here. But if different recommendations exist on how to do a standard overhead join in the different countries, I understand why SD has chosen to do it this way. What I have found so far is that Norway is adhering to recommendations from both FAA and CAA. Luftfartstilsynet (FAA/CAA of Norway) mentions and recommends the «standard overhead approach» in different texts, but only lists the typical approach as seen below (attached). If there are several different standard overhead approaches, I don’t understand how we can talk about a standard… I believe the “standard” Luftfartstilsynet is talking about is the same as in the UK / CA (attached). What I still have not figured out is how to manouver to get into this position if approaching the airport from a different direction, or eg. approaching as seen in the figure, but realizing that the active runway is in the opposite direction. In the latter case you are still overflying with the airport to your left at 500 ft above the pattern altitude, but you are not over the landing threshold, but over the departing threshold. How should you proceed in this case to enter the left crosswind? Left 180 direct dead side, descend turning left for left crosswind at pattern altitude? Seems OK to me, but I have never seen nor read about this anywhere, and that bugs me… I do understand if this discussion should be taken to a different forum, if so please advise. And to be clear, Norwegian publications first and foremost recommends that you follow local procedures as most ADs in Norway have these. I am talking about in those cases where no such procedures exists and I have to follow some general standards..
Standard Overhead Join as recommended by Norway, based on recommendations from CAA. What if I fly this approach only to realize that the active runway is in the opposite direction, how should I proceed to enter left crosswind?
|
|
|
|
|
grahamb
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 579,
Visits: 27K
|
+xThank you grahamb for your reply! I have already discussed this with my FI, actually several FIs, including going through the national VFR guide handbook. I haven’t found the answer to my questions, therefore my post here. But if different recommendations exist on how to do a standard overhead join in the different countries, I understand why SD has chosen to do it this way. What I have found so far is that Norway is adhering to recommendations from both FAA and CAA. Luftfartstilsynet (FAA/CAA of Norway) mentions and recommends the «standard overhead approach» in different texts, but only lists the typical approach as seen below (attached). If there are several different standard overhead approaches, I don’t understand how we can talk about a standard… I believe the “standard” Luftfartstilsynet is talking about is the same as in the UK / CA (attached). What I still have not figured out is how to manouver to get into this position if approaching the airport from a different direction, or eg. approaching as seen in the figure, but realizing that the active runway is in the opposite direction. In the latter case you are still overflying with the airport to your left at 500 ft above the pattern altitude, but you are not over the landing threshold, but over the departing threshold. How should you proceed in this case to enter the left crosswind? Left 180 direct dead side, descend turning left for left crosswind at pattern altitude? Seems OK to me, but I have never seen nor read about this anywhere, and that bugs me… I do understand if this discussion should be taken to a different forum, if so please advise. And to be clear, Norwegian publications first and foremost recommends that you follow local procedures as most ADs in Norway have these. I am talking about in those cases where no such procedures exists and I have to follow some general standards..
Standard Overhead Join as recommended by Norway, based on recommendations from CAA. What if I fly this approach only to realize that the active runway is in the opposite direction, how should I proceed to enter left crosswind? André, don't fall into the trap of overthinking this.
The standard UK overhead join is a big roundabout in the sky which you can join from any direction, and once you know the runway in use (i.e. at a deserted airfield have been able to see the windsock, and make a decision. If it's manned, or there is other traffic, you'll know anyway) you descend over the landing threshold to the dead side. If you need to change circuit direction, then while observing any local rules, you leave the overhead and rejoin in the correct direction. Diagrams like the one above serve to confuse because they imply you can only join from one direction.
Remember, SkyDemon is not there to direct you. It's there to offer information. You as Captain have to make the decisions and control the aircraft accordingly.
|
|
|
|
|
André
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 24,
Visits: 58
|
+x+xThank you grahamb for your reply! I have already discussed this with my FI, actually several FIs, including going through the national VFR guide handbook. I haven’t found the answer to my questions, therefore my post here. But if different recommendations exist on how to do a standard overhead join in the different countries, I understand why SD has chosen to do it this way. What I have found so far is that Norway is adhering to recommendations from both FAA and CAA. Luftfartstilsynet (FAA/CAA of Norway) mentions and recommends the «standard overhead approach» in different texts, but only lists the typical approach as seen below (attached). If there are several different standard overhead approaches, I don’t understand how we can talk about a standard… I believe the “standard” Luftfartstilsynet is talking about is the same as in the UK / CA (attached). What I still have not figured out is how to manouver to get into this position if approaching the airport from a different direction, or eg. approaching as seen in the figure, but realizing that the active runway is in the opposite direction. In the latter case you are still overflying with the airport to your left at 500 ft above the pattern altitude, but you are not over the landing threshold, but over the departing threshold. How should you proceed in this case to enter the left crosswind? Left 180 direct dead side, descend turning left for left crosswind at pattern altitude? Seems OK to me, but I have never seen nor read about this anywhere, and that bugs me… I do understand if this discussion should be taken to a different forum, if so please advise. And to be clear, Norwegian publications first and foremost recommends that you follow local procedures as most ADs in Norway have these. I am talking about in those cases where no such procedures exists and I have to follow some general standards..
Standard Overhead Join as recommended by Norway, based on recommendations from CAA. What if I fly this approach only to realize that the active runway is in the opposite direction, how should I proceed to enter left crosswind? André, don't fall into the trap of overthinking this.
The standard UK overhead join is a big roundabout in the sky which you can join from any direction, and once you know the runway in use (i.e. at a deserted airfield have been able to see the windsock, and make a decision. If it's manned, or there is other traffic, you'll know anyway) you descend over the landing threshold to the dead side. If you need to change circuit direction, then while observing any local rules, you leave the overhead and rejoin in the correct direction. Diagrams like the one above serve to confuse because they imply you can only join from one direction.
Remember, SkyDemon is not there to direct you. It's there to offer information. You as Captain have to make the decisions and control the aircraft accordingly. You are right that my “issue” is more about the rules and individual countries standards, not the SkyDemon application =) I made this post on reddit which gave me a better understanding. My main issue I guess that I prefer understanding something 100%, and when I can’t get to the bottom of things, it bugs me… Eg. where the norwegian CAA recommends the Standard Overhead Join in certain circumstances, but fails to describe it thoroughly, and I can’t find any more info about it as I don’t know if they made up a new procedure just for Norway, or if it is copied from another country.. This reeally bugs me, be precise!!! But I’ll get over it 
Thank you all for your inputs!
|
|
|
|
|
Briseham
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4,
Visits: 71
|
1According to the UK CAA Skyway Code there are 5 join procedures: SOJ, DW, CW and Straight In. The CW join is a perfectly legitimate and useful join, and the manner in which SD illustrates the SOJ is in fact consistent with this i.e. a CW join, which may be thought of as the middle part of a SOJ i.e. crosswind traverse (othogonal to the runway) at circuit height and over the upwind numbers to join the downwind circuit leg. CAA diagrams there and in other documents can confuse as they can label "crosswind leg" for both a circuit rectangle and an illustration of the crosswind traverse of a SOJ. Should not SD's Approach tool also include CW in the join choices ? The base of the think arrow nicely reminds the pilot that it is prudent to be always turning in the circuit direction.Back to the SOJ:
|
|
|
|
|
Briseham
|
|
|
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4,
Visits: 71
|
Sorry, missed last part of my post: Finally, back to the SOJ depiction in SD: I have yet to be convinced that there is a neat, simple way to show this any better than the current SD depiction. Perhaps the way to think about it is that the thick arrow is the end of a notional longer SOJ path that has this arrow as the middle part of a dotted line from the current position to the overhead, positioning and descending, crossing the upwind numbers to join downwind, downwind, base and final The base end of this arrow still serves as useful reminder to maintain the right direction hwne positioning, especially if approaching the a/f from the dead side direction.
No ?
|
|
|
|