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Fuel planning on an multiple stop trip WITHIN one tank filling


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flyinghuebi
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Hi out there. I read a lot in this forum about fuel planning in SD. Even the pros and cons of making a whole new fuel calculation each stop I plan (with the "land here" function) vs. calculating with the remaining fuel.

BTW, I also plead for a fuel calculation possibility for the whole trip. With calclulate on base of remaining fuel (if you need more votes for that Wink)!

But I found so far no answer for a mostly common problem we have (expect of "do it manually"):

- I recently plan a trip of about 2 hours flight time. That is absolutely within my tank capacity WHITOUT any refuelling including reserves.
- The trip has four stops (or more. But even with one stop the problem exists)
- At each leg I get a fuel calculation by SD including the 30 min. holding.
This makes about 120 minutes of holdings/reserve on a 120 minute flight with 4 stops. That does really not make sense!

Altough I do understand why you (until now Wink) decided not to implement a feature that calculates the fuel based on the remaining amout after first landing, I cannot find a way to tell SD "please use the 30 Min. Holding and contingency JUST ONCE".

Is there a way to do so which I simply not found?

It is absolutely clear that I can plan a flight without "land here" and ad manually the amount of fuel for landing and departure/take off. But that is IMHO much more critical and error-prone, than computing with the reamining fuel I think. 

A suggestion for that often discussed topic could be: In the settings offer a checkbox which says "Plan or do not plan reserve/holding/contingency after each landing". If you want add "we highly recommend to leave this active". Or an explanation "If you turn this to off reserve/holding/contingency fuel will be calculates just once for the whole trip".

But the - in my opinion -  best solution is the here in the forum often suggested way to calculate a multiple stop (or sector) with the remaining fuel and send a warning when there is not enough fuel for further legs.

Thank for your suggestions on my question above, hints and answers

Daniel




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Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
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The reason why we (so far) haven't implemented anything like this is the complexity we think it could add to the product. Although we do support dividing a long trip into multiple sectors, we don't really do anything at the moment to link the sectors together. Instead they are all essentially different flights, with their own self-contained planning.

If I understand you correctly you'd benefit from some kind of user interface that would make it easier to decide when to "flow" the remaining fuel through to the next sector, with the assumption of course that you didn't use any contingency or holding fuel.

flyinghuebi
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Hi Tim, thanks for the rapid answer. Yes exactly.  This feature would be very helpful for everyone who flys „just around“ for some fun oder training purpose. And thats more often the case especially with an microlight.  Making a touch and go here and there and maybe come back to the origin without a need of a fuel stop.  But to have a take off and landing calculation included and get the aiport inofs I want to click „land here“ even on touch and goes. 

So everyone can decide if  he/she needs  a new reserve/contingency just once for the hole „trip“ or before every new sector (e. g. when flying where refuelling possibility is rare or where you maybe really need some of the reserve fuel, because of no alternatives to land).

Your argument is totally right, that if you needed the 30 Minutes (for example) you HAVE to fill the fuel up after landing. Thats why I mentioned to let the user decide on the kind of trip he plans. So I only need to add all fuel recommendations and do not substract e. g. three times 30 minutes of reserve. Sure, having ONE sum in the plan of the needed fuel would be awesome Wink 

That maybe is also a good compromise for everyone who wanted a calculation with  „remaining“ fuel. 
Sorry, hope it is understandable. My english is not the best at all. 


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Tony N
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Daniel,

I think you may be asking for far too much added complexity to simple fuel planning.
I too fly an aircraft with only a single 49 litre fuel tank. I know my fuel consumption, averaged over many hours of flying, to be around 16.5 litre/s per hour.
I feel comfortable knowing a single flight of, say, 2hrs duration will leave me with about 45 - 55 mins reserve before only fumes left in tank.
Taking into account that some fuel will be unusable I will start to feel uncomfortable about flying for longer that 2 hrs 15 mins.

So, I know not to fly for more than 2 hrs 15 mins thereby giving me around 30 mins maximum reserve, assuming my fuel tank was completely full.
I also carry with me a calibrated dip stick so I know exactly how much fuel I have left in my tank...
Sometimes it is best to go back to basic, manual, flight planning for some safety critical elements, such as fuel planning.

Tony



Tim Dawson
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Hi Daniel, one problem we have with your suggestion is that if a user is just "flying around" as you say, then SkyDemon's fuel calculations will not be accurate at all anyway. Therefore, such casual flying isn't really suited to the precise fuel calculations and "flow through" that is being proposed, as the pilot would/should be checking their tanks anyway after such a flight. Would you agree?
flyinghuebi
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Hi Tim, checking the tanks: yes (at a full stop,  not touch and go). This weekend I plan a trip EDLM EDLI EDVY EDWO EDLM. Straight as planned, not criusing around. SD now plans with 4 times (4 stops) more reserve fuel in comparison to just overfly the airports as a waypoint. What is the difference between overfly and making a touch and go in fuel planning? If an airport is closed or I cannot land there I proceed to the next. I have no obligation to land there. And: Not every airfield has my fuel (SuperPlus as most mircrolights). So I have to plan without refuelling possibility (okay 100LL is possible in an emergency, but you know what I mean) Smile

Now the plan tells me to take 28 liter more fuel with me (these are 20 kilograms) as if I just overfly the airports as waypoints.

@tnowak: When just cruising around I am with you. But in the above example I fly to three (unknown) airfields. Most of them do not have the fuel I need. I want to know if my full tanks are suitable to come back safe including take off, taxi and landings and for sure a reserve of 45 min. Sure, I can calculate that manually. But I would like my planning software to tell me: You need e.g. 55 liters for the whole trip. (Cool, no need to refuel except I burn emergency fuel)
Or: you need 71 Liters (then I know, I need to make a stopover at an additional airfield whicht has my fuel) 

And that could be one checkbox "Calculate Reserve/Contingency once for whole trip"

Sorry a lot of text. I see both sides for sure. On longer legs you are totally right. At short ones like mine with leg time between 11 and 40 minutes, you do not need so much reserve fuel. And separated 4 PLOG's Wink

Maybe I could clear up a bit the sight of someone who cannot refuel at every airfield and flies a lot of shorter trips with more stops and want to know if a (round) trip is possible with one tank filling or not.

happy landings
Daniel



 








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"If you know where you are you can be wherever you want..."

Tim Dawson
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Hi Daniel, in the situation you describe, why bother using the "land here" option in SkyDemon at all? It sounds like you're planning to do touch and goes or low passes, and maybe setting SkyDemon up for full-stop landings isn't appropriate?
flyinghuebi
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Tim Dawson - 5/26/2021 8:55:10 AM
Hi Daniel, in the situation you describe, why bother using the "land here" option in SkyDemon at all? It sounds like you're planning to do touch and goes or low passes, and maybe setting SkyDemon up for full-stop landings isn't appropriate?


Hi Tim, both. t&g and full stops. I want to use the "land here" function because it calculates the taxi, takeoff and landing consumption and gives me the aerodrome charts, frequencies and other features I love at this app (landing visualisation e.g.) Smile

But I do not need to refill on these short trips. Often (I am allowd to land on glider sites too, like most microlights, ultralights) there even is no refuel possibility. So I HAVE to calculate with the fuel I have aboard. And for that I  have to fly with only one amount of reserve right from the start. After a full stop landing, I check the tank, see maybe 50 from 60 liters, have a look in the fuel calculation of SD and see "Okay, for the rest of my trip I need 45 liters". Or, if I needed the reserve fuel (never happens until now): For the rest of my trip I would need 55 litres, so I can fly back or to an alternate or whatever is shorter or gives me refuelling possibility.

If I am on a longer trip an NEED to reach my destination airport (and do not want to shortcut or fly back if I have to divert or use the reserve) I am totally with you. On this kind of trips I stop over, maybe use every refuelling possibility. Therefore all SD calculations are totally fine.






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"If you know where you are you can be wherever you want..."

Tim Dawson
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Ok, thanks for explaining. This isn't something we are likely to accommodate in the short term, but if you like I can move this thread to the Suggestions forum where it's more likely other people can give their thoughts? If it's something that a lot of our customers would like to do, that will help us to prioritise it.
flyinghuebi
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Thanks Tim for being that transparent and honest. And giving me a chance to argue and explain. Sure push it over to the suggestions. Happy weekend and thanks Smile

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"If you know where you are you can be wherever you want..."

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