DFS chart style and airspace „E“

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DFS chart style and airspace „E“

Author	Message
Hetzenauer	H Hetzenauer posted 5/4/2020 10:36:20 AM Post Details Share Post
H Group: Forum Members Posts: 32, Visits: 15	+x Tim Dawson - 5/4/2020 8:53:02 AM Chris, you asked me to look at some screenshots on page 1 and said do I really think this is a good idea. I cannot see anything in those screenshots that is a bad idea, so I am forced to ask you what you are referring to specifically. Most people use the SkyDemon chart styles, which contain much more functionality that the ones intended to match some of the colours and line styles of paper charts. It seems that changes to our charting features in the latest version may have negatively impacted the DFS style which I will look into later this morning. The shaded borders at the outside of airspace classifications, but not at every level change within those classifications, are a valuable decluttering feature in our main chart styles. I suspect that these were brought into our DFS style in an attempt to improve legibility, and perhaps they are not wanted, but I will investigate further. These changes were in beta for approximately two months, with no adverse reaction whatsoever. If people don't like them we will consider revising them back, but do feel free to get involved in the beta programme if you'd like an early opportunity to give feedback on changes. Tim- I think the reactions here came in very clear and fast. So I understand your reaction kind like.. the customers want it - they get it.. Good idea ;-) Regarding the beta test - challenge accepted! Where can I opt in? Best, Björn
	Reply Like 6
Tim Dawson	Tim Dawson posted 5/4/2020 2:26:39 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 8K, Visits: 9.1K	SkyDemon beta information available here: http://www.skydemon.aero/start/beta.aspx You can download a PC or Android beta right now, containing fixes to the issues with the DFS chart that people have written about on this thread. iOS betas take a longer time, but you can sign up for them and be notified whenever they are available.
	Reply Like 6
Andreas	Andreas posted 5/4/2020 3:14:42 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 17, Visits: 114	+x Tim Dawson - 5/4/2020 2:26:39 PM SkyDemon beta information available here: http://www.skydemon.aero/start/beta.aspx You can download a PC or Android beta right now, containing fixes to the issues with the DFS chart that people have written about on this thread. iOS betas take a longer time, but you can sign up for them and be notified whenever they are available. Thank you Tim, for this quick fix. I'm happy to announce that this is looking fine again on the pc-beta. Are the aerobatic boxes also gone again? I found these location info's useful. What do you think, would it be feasable to create airspace labels like these on the paper map? No idea weather this is also readable on an iphone display, maybe. Thanks Andreas
	Reply Like 7
JKL	J JKL posted 5/4/2020 5:13:51 PM Post Details Share Post
J Group: Forum Members Posts: 3, Visits: 5	Dear Tim, thanks for the quick reaction getting the DFS style back to the previous version. Tested both Beta versions (PC and Android). Best regards Johannes
	Reply Like 5
Hetzenauer	H Hetzenauer posted 5/4/2020 6:02:41 PM Post Details Share Post
H Group: Forum Members Posts: 32, Visits: 15	Ok, now here´s my first beta report regarding the lowered E airspaces in skydemon. Unfortunately, they´re all wrong. The reason is this: In Germany all airspace is declared as "E" airspace between 2.500´ AGL and FL100 (FL130 near the Alps). Since it is "everywhere" it isn´t depicted on the ICAO charts. Only those areas near CTR´s and RMZ´s, where it is lowered to 1.000´ AGL are shown separately on the (paper) chart, see this pic (courtesy of DFS): The area around the red arrows show the general vertical airspace boundaries between "G" and "E", while the yellow arrow shows a lowered "E" airspace (to 1.000´ AGL). These are the structures that are separately depicted on the ICAO chart and also in skydemon. However, in skydemon they are coded with an upper limit of FL100 (see pic below), which leads to frequent false alerts: in this case it tells me I´m leaving airspace "E" although my altitude is about FL065, which means I´m still inside "E"! These warning events ("exit"/"entry") happen several times when flying x-country for instance in FL65 - they are all wrong. So, my solution would be this: hardcode these class "E" areas with an upper limit of 2.500´AGL. When an pilot flying in, let´s say, 2.000´ AGL, enters such an area, he or she gets warned like in the pic above - good thing, because these lowered airspaces are there for a reason. However, an pilot flying in FL75 way above that same RMZ the lowered "E" is made for is aware he´s flying in "E" all the time - and will not receive such a false alarm. If those lowered "E" areas would then be coloured in green (or brighter blue...) like mentioned above in the DFS chart style, everybody would be happy - I guess... Best, Björn Edited 5/4/2020 6:05:41 PM by Hetzenauer
	Reply Like 6
Chris_LSZO	Chris_LSZO posted 5/4/2020 9:14:20 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 107, Visits: 149	Hey Tim This beta-Version looks VERY good! Maybe smaller glider, hangglider and aerobatic symbols (maybe adjustable?) and all would be very fine for me! Thank you so much! The new Airspace labels are still impressive good. Chris Edited 5/4/2020 9:32:08 PM by Chris_LSZO
	Reply Like 4
Tim Dawson	Tim Dawson posted 5/5/2020 9:06:22 AM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 8K, Visits: 9.1K	Thanks all for the feedback. I'll address your questions one by one below. Andreas: I do not know what you mean by aerobatic boxes. From memory, we hadn't had such things in our Germany chart but perhaps I am wrong. Regarding the airspace labels, that kind of labelling doesn't work too well with a dynamic chart like SkyDemon's, where airspace can be shown or hidden depending on user settings. Hetzenauer: That's actually the way we used to encode class E airspace in Germany (with an upper limit of 2500' AGL and assuming the user knew that above that was still the general class E). We received a lot of complaints about that, by users informing us that the airspace actually went up to FL100 NOT 2500' AGL, which of course we knew, but there you go. One possibility would be for us to simply stop telling pilots when they enter or leave class E airspace, or perhaps stop telling them when they leave. I will leave that thought for further discussion here. Chris: We've come under strong pressure lately for winch-launching symbology to be clear. They're just as dangerous as ground-based obstructions of course. We are open to reviewing the size of hang- and paraglider symbols and we'll wait to see what the general feedback is for them. It's very difficult striking a balance where the symbols convey their meaning properly in all the different locations throughout Europe where such activities are promulgated.
	Reply Like 7
Mike Stueber	Mike Stueber posted 5/5/2020 1:10:42 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 54, Visits: 193	Hi Tim, thank you so much, that's now it's posssible again to hide Airspace E if one like to do so. The second huge problem is, that now at all the airfields, where glider flying takes place, the large glider symbol is present. And, worst off all, in your database you took all the smallest places where hang-gliding takes place. Up to the last version this was hidden if one had not choosen under "airspace" the slider "Sporting Activity" . Please, give us back this opportunity, now the chart is entirely overloaded with the glider symbols. Especially in the southern part of Germany. A slider like for airspace E for these symbols. Many thanks. Mike
	Reply Like 6
Hetzenauer	H Hetzenauer posted 5/5/2020 2:54:16 PM Post Details Share Post
H Group: Forum Members Posts: 32, Visits: 15	+x[quote] Tim Dawson - 5/5/2020 9:06:22 AM Hetzenauer: That's actually the way we used to encode class E airspace in Germany (with an upper limit of 2500' AGL and assuming the user knew that above that was still the general class E). We received a lot of complaints about that, by users informing us that the airspace actually went up to FL100 NOT 2500' AGL, which of course we knew, but there you go. Ok ok, got it... Here they say: "Whatever you do - in the end it´s wrong" How about inserting a trigger then which simply would disable warnings when flying above that threshold of 2500´ AGL? In that case no more false warnings would come up... Btw: GREAT costumer support, really appreciate your efforts! Thank you!
	Reply Like 6
Chris_LSZO	Chris_LSZO posted 5/5/2020 6:18:21 PM Post Details Share Post
Group: Forum Members Posts: 107, Visits: 149	+x Tim Dawson - 5/5/2020 9:06:22 AM It's very difficult striking a balance where the symbols convey their meaning properly in all the different locations throughout Europe where such activities are promulgated. Thanks Tim for discuss with us about all in this way, I appreciate that very much. What about my idea to give the opportunity to let us change the size of this symbols by a slider like with the font size? Then every user could customize it like he want. Chris Edited 5/5/2020 6:19:15 PM by Chris_LSZO
	Reply Like 5