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Norway sporting areas missing


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chrispilot
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HI
I noticed that the Norway Sporting Areas are not longer there on the latest chart update... (Norway AIP ENR 6.6-1)

Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
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Yes, we removed many of these after Avinor confirmed they are not displayed on their standard enroute charts either.

If you found them useful, please let us know in what capacity, as we are considering making them available under a special setting.

chrispilot
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Tim Dawson - 3/30/2020 9:12:37 AM
Yes, we removed many of these after Avinor confirmed they are not displayed on their standard enroute charts either.

If you found them useful, please let us know in what capacity, as we are considering making them available under a special setting.

Hi Tim, 
These areas are made active upon request by pilots on a few minutes notice on a "first come first serve" basis. Other pilots generally will avoid flying through these areas,  unless ATC can confirm that they are not active.  I  thus find it very useful to have these shown in SD and to get a warning on approaching them.  There is already a function to show/hide these in the SD airspace setup so i guess you dont need to change anything as long as you get the data from Avinor? 

Tim Dawson
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Thanks Chris. It isn't quite as easy as that; sporting areas are treated very differently by different countries, there's no standardisation of them, and they range from hazards as serious as winch launching (which we definitely don't want the user to hide) to things like seldom-used airspace divisions that are really only useful for glider pilots.

Norway seems to have a mixture of these in ENR 5.5 without differentiating them. Are you saying all of them fall into the category of "first come first served" with ATC? The fact they are omitted in Avinor's own charts is interesting.

chrispilot
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Tim Dawson - 3/31/2020 9:35:42 AM
Thanks Chris. It isn't quite as easy as that; sporting areas are treated very differently by different countries, there's no standardisation of them, and they range from hazards as serious as winch launching (which we definitely don't want the user to hide) to things like seldom-used airspace divisions that are really only useful for glider pilots.

Norway seems to have a mixture of these in ENR 5.5 without differentiating them. Are you saying all of them fall into the category of "first come first served" with ATC? The fact they are omitted in Avinor's own charts is interesting.

Hi again. I truly appreciate the efforts you guys are doing considering the lack of standard across countries regarding airspaces. As far as I know all the areas listed in ENR 5.5 may be active/de-active on short notice. The busiest sporting areas are located around Oslo, and these are shown together with other airspace in a separate chart ENR 6.6-1. Avinors other en route charts in the AIP are not showing the sporting areas as they would cause a large cluttering effect, but the areas have always been shown on the ICAO paper charts. I have not seen the 2020 edition of ICAO, but would be very surprised if the sporting areas are omitted from these as there are still some pilots that use paper charts. As far as i am concerned, the way SD showed and treated the Norwegian Sporting Airspaces were just fine, so it would be great if you can continue this on future chart updates.

custardwings
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Just want to add my +1 here - was planning a trip to one of the local "airwork" areas this week and noticed they've all gone from Skydemon. Quite often we'll get clearances into controlled airspace like "cleared 6000ft and below within Airwork Echo" and it's incredibly useful to see where the airwork boundaries are on the screen, especially since it's part of the clearance!

I remember pre-SkyDemon it was quite a lot of extra work/distraction to keep an eye on lakes/churches/etc. to stay within the area, and a faff to constantly refer to the paper map when you are trying to practice stalls and steep turns, etc.

This also applies to transitioning when flying in controlled airspace - have often received an instruction like "aerial sports Eggemoen B is active - stay clear" (normally due to glider activity) - not having the boundaries for that on the screen is going to be painful...

They are pretty much first come first served but there's nothing to stop someone else using the class G (lower) part while you are buzzing around in there. ATC won't clear two aircraft to operate simultaneously in the controlled bit (e.g. 3500ft - 6000ft), they'll often just suggest an adjacent airwork area.

As a temporary measure I guess I can set up waypoints to mark the corners but you have to appreciate that is clunky af Smile

I appreciate there are possible confusing factors and inconsistencies across countries - but I second the expectation that SkyDemon should (at least as an option) show the same detail or more than the ICAO charts, not less.

Edited 4/14/2020 2:49:59 PM by custardwings
grahamb
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custardwings - 4/14/2020 2:46:06 PM
Just want to add my +1 here - was planning a trip to one of the local "airwork" areas this week and noticed they've all gone from Skydemon. Quite often we'll get clearances into controlled airspace like "cleared 6000ft and below within Airwork Echo" and it's incredibly useful to see where the airwork boundaries are on the screen, especially since it's part of the clearance!

I remember pre-SkyDemon it was quite a lot of extra work/distraction to keep an eye on lakes/churches/etc. to stay within the area, and a faff to constantly refer to the paper map when you are trying to practice stalls and steep turns, etc.

This also applies to transitioning when flying in controlled airspace - have often received an instruction like "aerial sports Eggemoen B is active - stay clear" (normally due to glider activity) - not having the boundaries for that on the screen is going to be painful...

They are pretty much first come first served but there's nothing to stop someone else using the class G (lower) part while you are buzzing around in there. ATC won't clear two aircraft to operate simultaneously in the controlled bit (e.g. 3500ft - 6000ft), they'll often just suggest an adjacent airwork area.

As a temporary measure I guess I can set up waypoints to mark the corners but you have to appreciate that is clunky af Smile

I appreciate there are possible confusing factors and inconsistencies across countries - but I second the expectation that SkyDemon should (at least as an option) show the same detail or more than the ICAO charts, not less.

Yoiu could use the custom data feature of the Windows version to create proper airspace areas.

custardwings
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grahamb - 4/14/2020 6:04:30 PM
custardwings - 4/14/2020 2:46:06 PM
Just want to add my +1 here - was planning a trip to one of the local "airwork" areas this week and noticed they've all gone from Skydemon. Quite often we'll get clearances into controlled airspace like "cleared 6000ft and below within Airwork Echo" and it's incredibly useful to see where the airwork boundaries are on the screen, especially since it's part of the clearance!

I remember pre-SkyDemon it was quite a lot of extra work/distraction to keep an eye on lakes/churches/etc. to stay within the area, and a faff to constantly refer to the paper map when you are trying to practice stalls and steep turns, etc.

This also applies to transitioning when flying in controlled airspace - have often received an instruction like "aerial sports Eggemoen B is active - stay clear" (normally due to glider activity) - not having the boundaries for that on the screen is going to be painful...

They are pretty much first come first served but there's nothing to stop someone else using the class G (lower) part while you are buzzing around in there. ATC won't clear two aircraft to operate simultaneously in the controlled bit (e.g. 3500ft - 6000ft), they'll often just suggest an adjacent airwork area.

As a temporary measure I guess I can set up waypoints to mark the corners but you have to appreciate that is clunky af Smile

I appreciate there are possible confusing factors and inconsistencies across countries - but I second the expectation that SkyDemon should (at least as an option) show the same detail or more than the ICAO charts, not less.

Yoiu could use the custom data feature of the Windows version to create proper airspace areas.

I haven't seen that before - interesting. I just had a quick play and I can't get the "OK" button to activate, it remains greyed out without any errors or notices, I suspect the coordinates don't line up or something (pasted from ENR 5.5), but I can't see a way to visualise them on the map - also things like Airwork Echo will be tricky because one side of the polygon is listed as "along the border between Norway and Sweden" but then I guess drawing a rough line for that is ok because SkyDemon shows the International border anyway. Oh well, will wait a bit for the conclusion of this thread before attempting to recreate all the airwork areas around Olso!

Cheers.

Update: Figured it out, looks ok, so for the areas that I plan to visit/transition in the near future this solution works I guess... Would be great to get it all back "live" though to save a lot of copy/pasting!

Edited 4/14/2020 7:20:58 PM by custardwings
Tim Dawson
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We may well bring them back if we get pushback from customers who found them useful.

custardwings, you said in the final paragraph of your penultimate post that you would expect SkyDemon not to show less than the ICAO chart. We removed these areas after confirmation from Avinor that the areas were NOT shown in their charts. Do you disagree with that?

custardwings
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Tim Dawson - 4/16/2020 9:37:07 AM
We may well bring them back if we get pushback from customers who found them useful.

custardwings, you said in the final paragraph of your penultimate post that you would expect SkyDemon not to show less than the ICAO chart. We removed these areas after confirmation from Avinor that the areas were NOT shown in their charts. Do you disagree with that?

I'll have to find someone with a 2019 chart and get back to you - they are certainly on the ones I have from 2018 and I don't remember hearing about them being removed. 

On the plus side, since being introduced to the custom data functionality, I have recreated all these areas manually now, and added a few more (like the special frequency area used in the Oslo Fjord). Am using Dropsync to automatically sync them to my mobile/pad, and will share the folder with club members who want it.

(Edit: Changed 2020 to 2019 - there is no 2020 chart - 2019 is currently newest)

Edited 4/16/2020 12:08:46 PM by custardwings
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