Important: These forums are for discussions between SkyDemon users. They are not routinely monitored by SkyDemon staff so any urgent issues should be sent directly to our Customer Support.

TMA Frequencies


Author
Message
Frans
Frans
Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 36, Visits: 23
I've noticed that some of the TMA frequencies in Switzerland does not match with the correct ATC-unit. For example, around Zurich, SD mentions "Zurich Information", but this is only the FIS-frequency and they can't give clearances by themselves. For TMA crossings "Zurich Terminal" is the correct ATC-unit to contact in TMA-airspace around Zurich for VFR-traffic in class C. For crossings within the non-TMA and non-CTR airspaces (class C and D), "Zurich Delta" is the correct ATC-unit. They give for example clearances to cross corridors and in general class C airspace above FL100/FL130.

In Germany, the non-CTR airspaces in class D and C doesn't have published frequencies for VFR-charts at all, but they are mentioned within the IFR-arrival/departure charts as Radar frequency. For example around Suttgart, this would be "Langen Radar" on 125,050 or 119,200 and around Cologne/Bonn, this would be also "Langen Radar", but now on 135,350. The problem here is the German ATC-company "DFS", which want to force VFR-pilots to contact FIS first prior to cross airspace class C or D.

Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 6.5K, Visits: 5.1K
We generally match what the official AIP states as the primary contact frequency for a piece of airspace. Most airspaces have this information specified. Are you saying that in Switzerland we have got this wrong, or that the AIP itself is suggesting an inappropriate frequency?

In Germany we are aware that a contact frequency is not mentioned for the local class C and D around airfields, and that is because they prefer you to contact the local FIS, which of course is present on screen. Our discussions with DFS on this matter have not resulted in them conceding to list frequencies for those airspaces so what we're currently doing does seem appropriate.

Frans
Frans
Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 36, Visits: 23
I've checked the frequencies around Zurich between SkyDemon and the official ICAO-map of Switzerland, and it seems to be 100% in sync. In that case, the official plates are suggesting an inappropriate frequency. Perhaps Skyguide wants you also to call FIS frist upon TMA crossing, however, this doesn't make any scence, since Zurich Terminal does this job for VFR-traffic. As far as I understood from Skyguide, the Terminal controller sits direct next to the departure and arrival controllers. Zurich Information however ist located at another office, which makes a call and further coordination necessary. They also don't have direct access to flightplans, which makes everything more complicated.

Regarding Germany: Would it be possible to display the Radar-frequencies from IFR-plates to the associated class C and D airspaces on the map? I use this IFR-plate "workaround" every time when I want to cross a local class C or D (non-CTR) airspace in Germany. Asking FIS is also an option of course, but on bussy weekends, the FIS-frequencies are overcrowded, limiting the chances of a clearance.

Edited 3/4/2019 10:31:39 AM by Frans
Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 6.5K, Visits: 5.1K
It would be possible, but we would have to implement a clear policy on this and have the approval from DFS that this was a consistent and helpful rule to apply throughout Germany. I can talk to them when we see them at Aero about this. Will you be attending also? You'd be welcome to come and be part of that conversation.
Frans
Frans
Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 36, Visits: 23
That would be great! I hope to be there on friday, but I'm a bit unsure because of some workprojects. I will let you know in advance, as soon as I've managed the projectplan for next month.

Edited 3/5/2019 11:26:20 AM by Frans
Frans
Frans
Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 36, Visits: 23
Unfortunately, I couldn't make it to the AERO in Friedrichshafen due to a very busy schedule at my work. I even forgot to mention it before and forgot about all my other open topics. My appologies for that.

I've figured out that "AirNavPro" (ANP) displays all the Approach frequencies for the German (non-CTR) TMAs, like Langen Radar "118,750" and "135,350" for Cologne/Bonn. It would be great to have this information also in SkyDemon, so pilots can contact the appropriate ATC-unit directly, instead of using FIS, which costs time and decrease the chances of a clearance. Did the DFS say something about this already to you guys? The frequencies are mentioned within the IFR SID and STAR-charts.

Furthermore, I've found out that SkyDemon does not display any frequency for general class C in Switzerland, which would be very usefull to get an "on op" clearance for the Alps. For the western part, this would be "Geneva Delta" on 119,175 and for the eastern part, this would be "Zurich Delta" on 119,225. The boundaries between Zurich and Geneva for Delta are the same as for Information (FIS).

Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 6.5K, Visits: 5.1K
There are now two separate matters under discussion here, which is confusing. I will ask my colleague to look into the Swiss airspace issue and make contact with the authorities there to confirm the division. Class C in Switzerland is divided into northern and southern parts, quite the opposite of how the FIS sectors are divided.

I have asked the DFS again if they will officially define the correct frequencies for penetration into the enroute class C/D airspace.

Frans
Frans
Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 36, Visits: 23
Are there any updates regarding this topic?

Regarding Switzerland: The frequencies for General Class C in Switzerland are also still missing, this should be "Geneva Delta" on 119.175 in the Geneva airspace and "Zurich Delta" on 119.225 in the Zurich airspace (same boundaries as FIS). FIS is only responsible for airspace E and G in Switzerland, for C (non-TMA) it is Delta. This is also described in the AIP ENR 2.1.

Furthermore, there is an issue with the "Information" frequency for LSME, LSZC and LSMA. This just an information frequency for airspace activation, just like an ATIS, which tells you what airspace is active or not. You cannot make a call on that frequency and its certainly not an AFIS. It's now mentioned as "Buochs" for LSZC, "Emmen Information" for LSME and "Alpnach Information" for LSMA, but it should be called "Airspace Information" or something similar, since it is one frequency for all named aerodromes. This takes me to the next error: "Kägiswil Information". There is not an AFIS-frequency for LSPG. Before departure, pilots should monitor the airspace activation-frequency to check if the airspace of Alpnach is active or not, and then the pilot should call Alpnach Tower for clearance OR make blind-calls on the Alpnach Tower frequency for Kägiswil. In my opinion, "Kägiswil" 128.475 would be sufficient for LSPG.

Last but not least, Meiringen (LSMM) and Dubendorf (LSMD) have only "Tower" as radio-callsign, which should be "Meiringen Tower" and "Dubendorf Tower" of course.

Edited 10/28/2019 4:52:49 PM by Frans
Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)SkyDemon Team (547K reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 6.5K, Visits: 5.1K
Regarding the original topic of this thread, the official line from German authorities is that pilots should contact the relevant FIS frequency if they wish to gain penetration into any of the enroute C/D airspace.

I checked a couple of the airfield frequencies you mentioned and it appears we are showing what the AIP entries for the airfields shows, which is our policy. We would consider it an error if the frequencies shown in SkyDemon differed from the official source information usually in AD section 2.18.

The frequency we have for Kagiswil differs from the frequency you give. Are you saying the frequency is wrong or the callsign is wrong?

I agree the callsigns for LSMM and LSMD could be better, I will forward this along.

Would you mind creating separate threads for separate issues? It helps us greatly when it comes to investigating them all.

Frans
Frans
Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)Too Much Forum (894 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 36, Visits: 23
Tim Dawson - 11/4/2019 11:26:41 AM
Regarding the original topic of this thread, the official line from German authorities is that pilots should contact the relevant FIS frequency if they wish to gain penetration into any of the enroute C/D airspace.
I understand. Nonetheless, wouldn't it still be possible to show the frequencies anyway, regardless of what the DFS prefers? Other apps have the frequencies included, for example AirNavPro.

Back to the Swiss TMA frequencies: Will Skydemon provide the "Delta" frequencies for the General Class C in Switzerland soon? This would greatly help, as Geneva Delta and Zurich Delta are frequencies mainly for VFR traffic, as described in ENR 2.1.

Tim Dawson - 11/4/2019 11:26:41 AM
Would you mind creating separate threads for separate issues? It helps us greatly when it comes to investigating them all.
Yes, I will do so. ;-)

GO

Merge Selected

Merge into selected topic...



Merge into merge target...



Merge into a specific topic ID...




Reading This Topic

Login

Explore
Messages
Mentions
Search