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Renzo
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Hi forum,
I have a question/subject concerning the "VFR" and "non-VFR"-AIPs in SkyDemon.
e.g. for Czech Republic there is one AIP "Czech Republic" and one named "Czech Republic (VFR)". This difference is also given in the german AIP. It seems, that SkyDemon comes with the IFR-AIP and I can´t find a dedicated "German VFR-AIP" But in "real life" is a VFR-AIP. The difference between VFR and IFR-AIP is the publishing date and an 14 days-offset when changes will be effective. The date of published data has an offset of 14 days between VFR and IFR.
For SD I have purchased the German AIP-Plates and I´v found some aerodrome-information concerning smaller airfields which is only found in the German VFR-AIP. So far so good, but the rest of the german AIP (General, Enroute...) seems to be the IFR-Part.
My question is: doesn´t DFS offer the VFR-Part to SD or is the German VFR-part simply not offered in SD?
Thanks for your time and answer,
Renzo
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Tim Dawson
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We offer only the VFR approach plates from the German VFR AIP. I don't think many people have ever asked for the other, textual portions.
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Renzo
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+xWe offer only the VFR approach plates from the German VFR AIP. I don't think many people have ever asked for the other, textual portions. Yes, maybe they did not ask for that - which is surprisingly to me. Having all the related stuff for VFR-flying in a country digitally with me and not anymore in a huge, heavy book is one is one main reason (beneath the navigation purpose of a great software-solution like Sky Demon of course!) And concerning Germany: the last 25 years I used the printed "Jeppesen Bottlang" with the VFR textual portions and of course the APP-charts for GER/AUT/SUI. One of my hopes buying Sky Demon was to get finally rid of the paperwork and having a *complete* VFR-AIP again - in a lightweight iPad using Sky Demon. Do you think that will be possible? I still wonder about, that never somebody asked for that...? Kind regards, Renzo
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Tim Dawson
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I will ask Eisenschmidt if there is a good reason why we only sell the charts (mainly) and not the textual part.
I suspect that the legal documents that are the main German AIP (which we do supply, for free) are all you need when used in combination with the VAC from the VFR AIP.
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Renzo
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+xI will ask Eisenschmidt if there is a good reason why we only sell the charts (mainly) and not the textual part. I suspect that the legal documents that are the main German AIP (which we do supply, for free) are all you need when used in combination with the VAC from the VFR AIP. Thanks very much Tim that you´ll ask Eisenschmidt concerning the textual part. Yes, you offer the German AIP for free, but this is the IFR-Part. Maybe some portions are similar to the VFR-part but not all. I compared it with my printed version. And one big difference between IFR and VFR-part ist the "effective date". They have an offset of 14 days. I think this is a "real german" problem because each other country offers the AIP digitally and for free. I also looked at Eisenschmidt for a complete digital version of the AIP VFR but I did not find one. Perhaps I have to look once more, closer.
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drnicolas
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+xI will ask Eisenschmidt if there is a good reason why we only sell the charts (mainly) and not the textual part. I suspect that the legal documents that are the main German AIP (which we do supply, for free) are all you need when used in combination with the VAC from the VFR AIP. Maybe I am wrong: But I remember, I have seen the textual part. This weekend I was missing itt, because we needed phone numbers of an airfield and the opening hours it was EDFR. Neither phone numbers nor opening hours are available ( not under Admin information, nor under the VFR-AIP). This is very disappointing!
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ckurz7000
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Are you saying that Germany has two AIP documents???? I am only aware of one AIP publication per country with some countries offering a VFR complement which is normally insufficient when taken only by itself.
-- Chris.
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Tim Dawson
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Germany have an IFR AIP and a VFR AIP. This does not really make any sense.
What makes even less sense is the fact their publication dates are offset by 14 days.
When I asked why they have two different AIPs, they said it was because their customers wanted it that way, to make life easier. Unfortunately, once the VFR AIP was split off, the people in charge then decided that it should be a chargeable product.
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Renzo
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+xGermany have an IFR AIP and a VFR AIP. This does not really make any sense. What makes even less sense is the fact their publication dates are offset by 14 days. When I asked why they have two different AIPs, they said it was because their customers wanted it that way, to make life easier. Unfortunately, once the VFR AIP was split off, the people in charge then decided that it should be a chargeable product.
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Renzo
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+x+xGermany have an IFR AIP and a VFR AIP. This does not really make any sense. What makes even less sense is the fact their publication dates are offset by 14 days. When I asked why they have two different AIPs, they said it was because their customers wanted it that way, to make life easier. Unfortunately, once the VFR AIP was split off, the people in charge then decided that it should be a chargeable product. I agree in every word concerning sense of "offset" two AIPs and so on. But: why is the IFR-portion in SD? Ok, its for free, thanks for that. But would it be possible for you to purchase a complete german AIP? Do the offer that to you? And if yes: could it be available to the users? At the second only the plates are useable for german pilots. Things change regularly in the VFR-AIP. I know that because I always have to deal with the paper-work. For a VFR-Pilot an IFR-AIP doesn´t make sense because some parts will always be not complete or outdated or not effective because of the offset. Kind regards, Renzo
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Tim Dawson
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There is no such thing as a "complete" German AIP. There is the IFR AIP, and the VFR AIP.
I still do not understand why you are actually asking about this: what EXACTLY are you missing in the VFR AIP that is essential for your flying?
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Renzo
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+xThere is no such thing as a "complete" German AIP. There is the IFR AIP, and the VFR AIP. I still do not understand why you are actually asking about this: what EXACTLY are you missing in the VFR AIP that is essential for your flying? Hi Tim again, sorry for putting this "explicid german" subject on you. I paid a very close look into the AIP provided in SD and my "DFS printed" AIP VFR version. There are differences in numbering the parts and so on. But anyhow: the closer look to both AIP said: nearly everything is to find in SD´s AIP Germany. so, no problem at all. My point was to get (and see in SD) an identical digital copy of my "paper-AIP" but it seems that Eisenschmidt does not provide a product like this. e.g. in the paper AIP you can find a chart, where all airspaces in GER are shown and described with their specifications. A chart like this (really just an example, I know the airspaces in GER ;-) ) wasn´t to find yet in the SD-AIP Germany. Anyhow, to complete this thread for now: I like it very much to work with SD because of its functionality, the access to all the AIPs for the downloaded countries and so on. I did several testflights with X-Plane to be prepared for the real world and I´m conviced. Ok, when I don´t wait for the autozoom and geo-referenced charts ;-) ;-) Fine Job you do there, I like it, even if we do not agree in every part we discussed already. Kind regards, Renzo
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Tim Dawson
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drnicolas, you are the architect of your own disappointment.
Airfields -> All Documents -> DFS German VFR AIP -> You'll see the "List of Aerodromes" document which is where DFS publish all opening hours and phone numbers etc.
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dirk64
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Sorry for open the topic again, but I completely agree with Renzo - it would be really nice to get rid of the paper version of the DFS German VFR AIP.
The above mentioned "List of Areodromes" is an important part of the VFR AIP. Together with Approach and Aerodrome Charts you provide us the complete "AD" section of the VFR AIP. The paper version also includes the "General", "Enroute" part and Supplements etc.
Maybe Eisenschmitt will offers you the complete VFR AIP for a higher price - I will be the first purchasing it!
Thanks Dirk
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Tim Dawson
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Can you explain what it is exactly that you need? Not just "general and enroute sections" but the actual information you feel is necessary.
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Gerhard66
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Hi Tim,
your question cannot be answered.
If the official VFR AIP paper version has a section "General", but SD does not, what other question would you expect from Dirk besides "what's written in section General?".
If you can confirm, that the provided "German AIP" in SD together with the purchased "DFS German VFR AIP" in SD provides comprehensive information for a VFR flight in Germany, we are happy! No further questions :-)
But if you couldn't confirm this, we would have a serious problem. Without the printed version, how could we find out if there exist other important regulations besides those mentioned in SD?
Kind regards
Gerhard
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dirk64
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Hi Tim, following this link to Eisenschmidt may help to explain what we are meaning: https://www.eisenschmidt.aero/charts-manuals/manuals/vfr/785/aip-vfr-basic-documentThis paperwork AIP VFR contains a SUP, GEN, ENR and AD part. The AD part is exactly what we get with our "DFS German AIP VFR" subscription. The rest is missing and it is not the same as the "normal" IFR AIP. Eisenschmidt also offers an electronic version called "Visual Flight Guide" but having everthing together in SD would be fantastic! Best regards Dirk
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Tim Dawson
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But there is no legal requirement to have copies of that information, either on the ground or in flight. So I am trying to find out what information, exactly, it is that you think you need. Obviously, Eisenschmidt do not think you need that information as they sell the AD-only package which many resellers, including us, pass on to German pilots.
Or is this just a general worry that you might need to be carrying more papers?
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Gerhard66
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Of course, no pilot is obliged to own the AIP or even have it in the cockpit available! That's nonsense! ;-)
But it is absolutely necessary to know the rules! And the rules are officially published in the AIP VFR.
Dirk seems to have discovered a discrepancy between the printed, official AIP VFR and the data provided by SD.
This makes doubting if the SD provided information is comprehensive. That's all.
Dirk, I guess you own the printed version.
Could you please provide just one single tangible example of important information that you can find in the printed AIP VFR but you are missing in SD.
I for myself assume, SD is comprehensive.
The SD provided AIP is called "AIP GERMANY", but the printed version seems to be called "AIP IFR".
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Renzo
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+xOf course, no pilot is obliged to own the AIP or even have it in the cockpit available! That's nonsense! ;-)But it is absolutely necessary to know the rules! And the rules are officially published in the AIP VFR. Dirk seems to have discovered a discrepancy between the printed, official AIP VFR and the data provided by SD.This makes doubting if the SD provided information is comprehensive. That's all. Dirk, I guess you own the printed version. Could you please provide just one single tangible example of important information that you can find in the printed AIP VFR but you are missing in SD. I for myself assume, SD is comprehensive. The SD provided AIP is called "AIP GERMANY", but the printed version seems to be called "AIP IFR". I my opinion Dirk wants the same thing I mentioned a few month before in this thread which was started by myself. I (and maybe Dirk as well?? :-) would like to have all the VFR-information which is provided by the printed VFR-AIP (Jeppesen, DFS) completely within SD to get rid of any printed VFR-version. The "free-AIP-section" (Germany) that is included in SD seems to provide IFR-informations and contains all the section like "Enroute", "General".... I discovered a "publishing-offset" of 14 days between the printed VFR AIP (DFS) and the freely provided IFR-AIP. The offset is generated by the publishers (DFS?), not by SD. Independently of when or where we need the information contained by the printed DFS-VFR-AIP: it would be fine to have the complete printed VFR-version (including General, Enroute...) within SD. Did I meet the point, Dirk and Gerhard? Kind regards, Renzo
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dirk64
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Yes, Gerhard you are right - I also own the printed version. And Renzo yes, we mean exactly the same thing. On Wednesday I received the newest update of the printed version (every 28 days like in SD) - there are some updates of the AD section (which will I get also via SD - actualy not by now) and updates of the other sections. I attached a link to a picture with info was updated in the 28 day update. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6w8LIcRjvRMQzNVdmFHbm02eFkBest regards Dirk
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Gerhard66
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There is a difference between "Date published" and "date effective"!
Did you also compare the "date effective" between paper and SD?
I'm sure, they are identical.
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Daniel_KDF
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After close inspection, it seems to me that the free German AIP ist IFR only and the purchased product called "DFS German VFR AIP" is still missing the GEN parts - beeing therefore not what the name implies.
Am I doing something wrong here?
If not and there are actually some missing parts: any chance these will be available soon?
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Tim Dawson
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The product DFS makes available through companies like SkyDemon is the charts and aerodrome information only. I don't know why they don't include the GEN parts etc. This week is a great time for people to ask them that question, as they'll all be at Aero Friedrichshafen.
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Hannes
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+xThe product DFS makes available through companies like SkyDemon is the charts and aerodrome information only. I don't know why they don't include the GEN parts etc. This week is a great time for people to ask them that question, as they'll all be at Aero Friedrichshafen. Hi Tim, AERO is an very good example that the GER AIP-VFR needs additional Data in SD. All the discussion before were about the ENR, GEN or validity dates but in your words ... it would be nice but is tha realy nessesary. What we, as the "total regulated german nation" ;-) VFR pilots, realy need, are critical VFR relevant informations on special events like Aero , which is only rudimentary available in NOTAM and not at all in the AIP(IFR). We need the VFR Circulars and VFR Supplements. e.g. AREO, there is an IFR SUP 2018/08 (1page) which does only include that there may be havy VFR traffic. Only the VFR SUP 2018/11 (7pages) includes all the nessesary VFR relevant regulations and Information. here are 2 links to the IFR and VFR SUPs https://aero-ppr.bodensee-airport.eu/documentation/SUP_VFR_2018_11.pdf https://aero-ppr.bodensee-airport.eu/documentation/SUP_IFR_2018_08.pdfMaybe we see us at AERO kind regards Hannes
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Tim Dawson
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At Aero, DFS confirmed to me that they will begin sending us all SUP for distribution to our customers who have the VFR AIP.
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Matthias14
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+xAt Aero, DFS confirmed to me that they will begin sending us all SUP for distribution to our customers who have the VFR AIP. Hi all,
did it come true, is the SUP section of the German AIP VFR send on a regular basis to SD customers? Where within SD would I find the SUP? Regards Matthias
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Tim Dawson
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They said they'd include them with the regular delivery of plate updates. To my knowledge, they haven't yet sent us any.
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Matthias14
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+xThey said they'd include them with the regular delivery of plate updates. To my knowledge, they haven't yet sent us any. This is disappointing. Will you take care and ask DFS again?
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Tim Dawson
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Are you saying there have been new SUPs for the VFR AIP? If so, could you send us one so that we can present it to DFS and ask them what's going on?
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Matthias14
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+xAre you saying there have been new SUPs for the VFR AIP? If so, could you send us one so that we can present it to DFS and ask them what's going on? Exactly, this is the point. Without SUP included in SD I am not able even to tell what I miss. In the printed version of AIP VFR SUPs are distributed almost monthly. For example with "Ascents of Rockets", "Construction work at", "Temporary exemption", "Closure of the runway", "Full-depth reconstruction of", "Aero in Friedrichshafen", "ILA in Berlin/Schönefeld", "Restricted area Hannover Trade Fair" and so on. I can't supply actual SUPs to you because my printed version is outdated. Before I renew the subscription I am looking for a smarter way to get the needed information. SD with integrated AIP could be it.
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Matthias14
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+xAre you saying there have been new SUPs for the VFR AIP? If so, could you send us one so that we can present it to DFS and ask them what's going on? Hi Tim,
I had the chance to copy some actual AIP VFR SUPs today. Where should I sent it as for your information?
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Tim Dawson
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I will send DFS an email asking whether there have been new SUPs and if so, why they have not been sent to us for distribution.
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Tim Dawson
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I don't think there's any need to send them to us. DFS are on the case.
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lmamane
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Here's an example of operationally / legally necessary / useful data not contained in airport plates, but in the rest of the AIP VFR of Germany. Sorry, I have only an outdated version, so page numbers may have changed a bit.
Page AD 1-6 contains a section "Ordinance for Noise Abatement at Airfields", which explains that at aerodromes with more than 15000
or more take-offs and landings per year, there are time restrictions on take-offs (for noise abatement reasons). Page AD 1-7 contains the list of aerodromes where this applies. An example is Bitburg EDRB. The approach and aerodrome charts are mum on this. Now, I go to Skydemon, take the EDRB airport info, and go to "Admin information". It contains the text "Restrictions see AD 1-6". How am I supposed to know what these restrictions are if I don't have the text parts of the VFR AIP, and in this specific case page AD 1-6 and following?
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Tim Dawson
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That is an excellent question, and one it would be ideal to pose to the German authorities.
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JanR
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Actually, the page you mentioned is available in Skydemon if you have purchased "DFS German VFR AIP". Use the Document Browser and open "Flight Procedures". This contains AD 1-1 to AD 1-19.
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Fepaje
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+xActually, the page you mentioned is available in Skydemon if you have purchased "DFS German VFR AIP". Use the Document Browser and open "Flight Procedures". This contains AD 1-1 to AD 1-19.
The AD 1-6 information included in the "Flight Procedures" PDF you mentioned is outdated. The list of aerodromes (AD 1-7) for example is from 2013.
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Tim Dawson
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No, that List of Aerodromes document is updated every 28 days. If you believe the Flight Procedures document to be out of date, or any that we host from the VFR AIP, please let us know (with reference to the actual date of the latest version) so we can take the issue to DFS.
DFS have confirmed that in the January update of the VFR AIP, they will include all SUP for us to publish.
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Fepaje
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Sorry, I phrased my example badly. With "list of aerodromes" I meant the aerodromes for which the noise abatement applies. This important information is located on page AD1-6 & AD1-7 within the "Flight Procedures" document which was last updated 2014/07/10. The page dates for this example are: AD1-6: "10 JUL 2014" AD1-7: "11 JUL 2013" Both of these are updated regularly. The current version was published today (20 DEC 2018) in the official VFR AIP.
Thanks for sorting out the SUP updates with DFS. That is already a big improvement.
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Tim Dawson
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We updated the VFR AIP in SkyDemon overnight. Is there anything in SkyDemon that you believe to be out of date, right now?
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Lukas_EDHI
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Hi Tim, I have been following this topic for some time now and I’m very happy to see that you are on the topic with DFS. Regarding your question on the updated VFR AIP I think that there are still no VFR SUP available in the AIP. When I’m having a look into the supplement section I still find several AIP IFR supplements but no VFR ones. One example: In the VFR AIP there should be a VFR SUP 33/18 dealing with a new TMZ around Wittmund effective from 31 Jan. When having a look in SD there is also a SUP 33/18 but an IFR one dealing with construction work at Hamburg (Pictures attached below). From my point of view DFS should definitely supply you with these SUPs, AICs etc. as without them you are actually missing very important information for your flight planning without even knowing that you missed something and you still need an extra VFR AIP copy outside SD to be well informed. So hopefully you succeed with the discussions with DFS and they will start to supply you with all relevant information very soon. Thanks for your efforts on this. Lukas  
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Andreas
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+xWe updated the VFR AIP in SkyDemon overnight. Is there anything in SkyDemon that you believe to be out of date, right now? AD 1-2 04. AUG 2016 replaces 11 OCT 2007 (SD)
AD 1-3 29. SEP 2016 replaces 13 SEP 2007 (SD)
AD 1-4 19. JAN 2017 replaces 13. SEP 2007 (SD) AD 1-5 20. DEC 2018 replaces 10. JUL 2014 (SD) AD 1-6 17. JAN 2019 replaces 10. JUL 2014 (SD) AD 1-7 20. DEC 2018 replaces 11. JUL 2013 (SD)
AD 1-8 25. OCT 2018 replaces 19. SEP 2002 (SD)
And thank you very much for your patience.
Andreas
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Tim Dawson
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All the VFR SUP have been in SkyDemon for a few weeks now. If you own the VFR AIP product you'll see them in the non-aerodrome-specific section, and I can confirm we've got SUP 33 which you're talking about.
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Lukas_EDHI
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+xAll the VFR SUP have been in SkyDemon for a few weeks now. If you own the VFR AIP product you'll see them in the non-aerodrome-specific section, and I can confirm we've got SUP 33 which you're talking about. Tim,
Thanks for clarification. It seems I was just looking in the wrong place. I didn't have in mind that the VFR parts are not listed in the AIP section but in the purchased products section only.
Maybe it would be possible to add a link to the VFR AIP parts also in the AIP section for Germany to avoid that people like me keep looking in the wrong directory? Anyway thanks again for your quick clarification.
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Tim Dawson
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Thank you, I've asked DFS why they haven't sent us an updated document for those.
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Tim Dawson
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They sent us an updated document later yesterday and you should see that in SkyDemon now.
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Andreas
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+xThey sent us an updated document later yesterday and you should see that in SkyDemon now. That's correct now. Thank's. Have a nice WE.
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fingertrouble
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 5,
Visits: 0
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Hello Tim,
I’m not sure if it fits in here. But when I go to Friedrichshafen (EDNY) - airport information - NOTAMS, it shows as number 3: “Trigger NOTAM - VFR SUP 04/19 WEF 14 March 2018 Aero Friedrichshafen 10 April 2019 til 13 April 2019- PPR will be granted from 27 March 2019 and changed procedures from 08 April 2019 til 14 April 2019.”
SUP 04/19 is linked to a pdf file, but to the IFR SUP 04/19, which has nothing to do with EDNY.
Many Greetings, Karsten.
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