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Great Circles


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peter@luthaus.de
p
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Hello,
suggested by Tim I post this request in the forum for discussion. I noted (it was already mentioned in the forum) that SkyDemon uses generally rhumb lines to connect waypoints. I find this unsatisfactory and annoying. Industry standard and the wanted way is great circles. There are many reasons why great circles should be used (compared to none using rhumblines):
1) Great circle is the standard for GPS navigation, so built in certified GPS use it and Skydemon is not consistent with the track actually flown even producing off track warnings.
2) For planning the total distance is not so different for short legs, but the off course deviation can be quite large. E.g planning from EDLW to EPWR the rhumb line goes through EDDP Delta, the great circle passes it completely.
3) Most pilots use Lambert projection charts approximating the earth's convergency for planning. So the straight lines drawn on paper will be close to great circles and it is unexpected that skydemon shows a different route.
4) Radials are great circles
5) Airways are great circles
As I find the rhumb line really a nuisance and also other pilots I know do so I suggest changing to great circles. I hope this could be implemented soon.
Peter


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Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
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I took a look around inside our routing engine to remind myself of how we used to allow the switch between rhumb lines and great circles, and it turns out the architecture is all still there. For anyone interested, I have produced a beta build of SkyDemon Plan which treats all legs as great circles instead of rhumb lines. That doesn't mean we will necessarily ship something, but it would be nice to get some feedback on how it works. Since supporting this might be much cheaper than I originally thought, we just need to come up with a way of the user selecting which they would prefer.

www.skydemon.aero/start/beta.aspx

T67M
T67M
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[quote]
Tim Dawson - 8/15/2016 2:10:24 PM
I took a look around inside our routing engine to remind myself of how we used to allow the switch between rhumb lines and great circles, and it turns out the architecture is all still there. For anyone interested, I have produced a beta build of SkyDemon Plan which treats all legs as great circles instead of rhumb lines. That doesn't mean we will necessarily ship something, but it would be nice to get some feedback on how it works.
Thanks Tim - the difference in the ground track on long legs is clearly noticeable, but the confusion of having the reverse leg not being a reciprocal heading is clearly apparent, and obviously the heading given on the PLog is only valid at the point of departure.

I like your idea of keeping the Rhumb Line as the default and using that for the PLog, but also drawing a (thinner) Great Circle line where the mid-point cross track difference is greater than a user configurable distance to guide the creation of additional waypoints in the leg if/when the user understands and wants Great Circle Navigation. I feel that the the default value for the cross-track threshold should be quite large so that existing users aren't confused by the changed behaviour.
Edited 8/16/2016 7:35:51 AM by T67M
Stratajet
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T67M - 8/15/2016 7:07:20 PM
[quote]
Tim Dawson - 8/15/2016 2:10:24 PM
I took a look around inside our routing engine to remind myself of how we used to allow the switch between rhumb lines and great circles, and it turns out the architecture is all still there. For anyone interested, I have produced a beta build of SkyDemon Plan which treats all legs as great circles instead of rhumb lines. That doesn't mean we will necessarily ship something, but it would be nice to get some feedback on how it works.
Thanks Tim - the difference in the ground track on long legs is clearly noticeable, but the confusion of having the reverse leg not being a reciprocal heading is clearly apparent, and obviously the heading given on the PLog is only valid at the point of departure.

I like your idea of keeping the Rhumb Line as the default and using that for the PLog, but also drawing a (thinner) Great Circle line where the mid-point cross track difference is greater than a user configurable distance to guide the creation of additional waypoints in the leg if/when the user understands and wants Great Circle Navigation. I feel that the the default value for the cross-track threshold should be quite large so that existing users aren't confused by the changed behaviour.

I'd like to +1 the Great Circle line with heading as a Rhumb on the PLog. It's really frustrating having the GPS being better at getting me there more direct. It was a particular pain when I was in Greenland a few months ago.

ckurz7000
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Stratajet - 1/18/2017 4:53:03 PM
T67M - 8/15/2016 7:07:20 PM
[quote]
Tim Dawson - 8/15/2016 2:10:24 PM
I took a look around inside our routing engine to remind myself of how we used to allow the switch between rhumb lines and great circles, and it turns out the architecture is all still there. For anyone interested, I have produced a beta build of SkyDemon Plan which treats all legs as great circles instead of rhumb lines. That doesn't mean we will necessarily ship something, but it would be nice to get some feedback on how it works.
Thanks Tim - the difference in the ground track on long legs is clearly noticeable, but the confusion of having the reverse leg not being a reciprocal heading is clearly apparent, and obviously the heading given on the PLog is only valid at the point of departure.

I like your idea of keeping the Rhumb Line as the default and using that for the PLog, but also drawing a (thinner) Great Circle line where the mid-point cross track difference is greater than a user configurable distance to guide the creation of additional waypoints in the leg if/when the user understands and wants Great Circle Navigation. I feel that the the default value for the cross-track threshold should be quite large so that existing users aren't confused by the changed behaviour.

I'd like to +1 the Great Circle line with heading as a Rhumb on the PLog. It's really frustrating having the GPS being better at getting me there more direct. It was a particular pain when I was in Greenland a few months ago.


+1 for optionally showing a faint version of the GC course (if the deviation is significant) because it gives me the option to approximate it using several shorter RL segments.

-- Chris.‌‌

GO

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peter@luthaus.de - 7/27/2016 12:01:14 PM
T67M - 7/27/2016 8:26:22 PM
peter@luthaus.de - 7/27/2016 9:10:18 PM
T67M - 7/27/2016 10:20:08 PM
Lars-Vater - 8/4/2016 1:47:13 PM
Tim Dawson - 8/5/2016 11:34:21 AM
JulianScarfe - 8/8/2016 8:19:06 AM
Tim Dawson - 8/8/2016 11:45:11 AM
Tim Dawson - 8/11/2016 10:10:02 AM
T67M - 8/11/2016 11:20:51 AM
Tim Dawson - 8/11/2016 1:30:45 PM
Tim Dawson - 8/15/2016 2:10:24 PM
T67M - 8/15/2016 7:07:20 PM
Stratajet - 1/18/2017 4:53:03 PM
ckurz7000 - 1/24/2017 1:34:43 PM
greg - 1/24/2017 9:39:23 PM
ckurz7000 - 1/29/2017 8:21:40 PM
Stratajet - 1/8/2018 2:49:50 PM
rg - 1/10/2018 11:26:33 AM
peter@luthaus.de - 1/18/2018 10:02:41 AM
Tim Dawson - 1/10/2018 4:57:59 PM
rg - 1/10/2018 5:11:31 PM
T67M - 1/10/2018 11:03:04 PM
Tim Dawson - 1/11/2018 12:19:46 PM
rg - 1/11/2018 12:25:44 PM
T67M - 1/11/2018 1:18:06 PM
ckurz7000 - 1/11/2018 2:05:23 PM
Sky Painter - 1/11/2018 3:29:13 PM
T67M - 1/11/2018 4:12:31 PM
             You make a good and valid point.
Sky Painter - 1/12/2018 3:56:56 PM
Tim Dawson - 1/15/2018 11:16:00 AM
Tim Dawson - 1/18/2018 10:35:44 AM
ckurz7000 - 1/18/2018 12:00:02 PM
peter@luthaus.de - 1/18/2018 1:30:10 PM
ckurz7000 - 1/23/2018 9:14:47 AM
Tim Dawson - 1/18/2018 12:45:42 PM
peter@luthaus.de - 1/18/2018 1:21:09 PM
T67M - 1/18/2018 1:18:10 PM
Tim Dawson - 1/19/2018 11:29:05 AM
Tim Dawson - 1/19/2018 11:30:43 AM
ckurz7000 - 1/23/2018 9:09:32 AM
Tim Dawson - 1/24/2018 3:03:45 PM
ckurz7000 - 1/25/2018 7:57:24 AM
jfw - 1/24/2018 3:51:34 PM
efrenken - 2/6/2018 4:01:02 AM
Cat - 3/22/2018 5:17:33 PM
Stratajet - 5/16/2019 7:44:33 AM
rg - 5/16/2019 8:05:11 AM
Tim Dawson - 5/16/2019 9:56:15 AM
rg - 5/16/2019 10:04:10 AM
T67M - 5/16/2019 10:54:45 AM
Cat - 5/16/2019 10:30:24 AM
Tim Dawson - 5/17/2019 1:59:11 PM
Cat - 5/29/2019 10:31:22 AM
rg - 1/24/2020 7:00:56 AM
T67M - 5/17/2019 3:06:58 PM
ArnaudC - 5/29/2019 10:08:35 AM
Tim Dawson - 1/24/2020 12:18:47 PM
rg - 1/26/2020 5:44:47 PM
hairy_kiwi - 5/19/2020 3:25:33 PM
Tim Dawson - 5/20/2020 9:42:44 AM
checklist - 7/19/2020 1:25:29 PM

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