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Night VFR, MSA, SERA and flight planning


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EHOW flyer
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pilot-byom - 4/8/2021 3:51:08 PM
Why do things more complicated than necessary? These rules are pretty compatible with common sense and if you deviate, you have a good reason for maintaining safety of flight and breaking rules is perfectly fine - as is the Golden Rule for airmenship. If you don't have common sense, don't go flying.

If it is me to whom you answer: where am I breaking a rule?
I am 'only' asking for an information box, based on the minimum safe height within the range of 8 km around the highest obstacle / terrain at night. So I can take this into account when performing my airmanship.

grahamb
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pilot-byom - 4/8/2021 3:51:08 PM
Why do things more complicated than necessary? These rules are pretty compatible with common sense and if you deviate, you have a good reason for maintaining safety of flight and breaking rules is perfectly fine - as is the Golden Rule for airmenship. If you don't have common sense, don't go flying.

Just switch the chart terrain feature on and plan/fly according to the colours.

pilot-byom
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Why do things more complicated than necessary? These rules are pretty compatible with common sense and if you deviate, you have a good reason for maintaining safety of flight and breaking rules is perfectly fine - as is the Golden Rule for airmenship. If you don't have common sense, don't go flying.
EHOW flyer
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I was about to start a new topic, but via the search I discovered this topic, so I will continue this.

I am interested in information about the minimum required altitude during Night VFR within the range of 8 km around the actual position.
So a 'simple square instrument' showing the minimum altitude based on the highest obstacle or elevation + 1000 ft rounded off to the next higher 100 ft. will help to comply with SERA 5005.
This 'instrument' can be selected via the Navigation Options>Instruments or will show up automatically based on the calculated night time.
So no warnings (there are already to much...), just an information box.

SERA 5005, C (5)
except when necessary for take-off or landing, or except when specifically authorised by the competent authority, a VFR flight at night shall be flown at a level which is not below the minimum flight altitude established by the State whose territory is overflown, or, where no such minimum flight altitude has been established:
(i)
over high terrain or in mountainous areas, at a level which is at least 600 m (2 000 ft) above the highest obstacle located within 8 km of the estimated position of the aircraft;
(ii)
elsewhere than as specified in i), at a level which is at least 300 m (1 000 ft) above the highest obstacle located within 8 km of the estimated position of the aircraft.

Sbihour
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Tim Dawson - 10/20/2020 8:02:54 AM
It's certainly possible, but unfortunately to make it easy for you, it would make it a bit more confusing for most customers who do not require such an easy toggle between settings regimes (because they do not fly at night). This is therefore the sort of thing we resist doing, because we look at the overall cost/benefit of doing it and shy away from the cost to other users.

I know that night flyers are rare animals Smile

I understand perfectly that you try to avoid costly developments for a limited number, as it's always an economical equilibrium. To me, these small and continuous enhancements is what makes SD what it is : there is always something handy that you don't know about, until you need it Wink

My I suggest just a simple thing ? : add in the MSA option boxes (under planning and also in navigation) the ability to save the MSA settings to a named-preset, so that you set it once and have just to recall it when needed. By doing that :
- the user can "toggle" between saved-presets
- day-flyers are not confused, they use just one preset as it is the case today
- this could be easy on devs ressources

Thanks for your time,

Sylvain.



Tim Dawson
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It's certainly possible, but unfortunately to make it easy for you, it would make it a bit more confusing for most customers who do not require such an easy toggle between settings regimes (because they do not fly at night). This is therefore the sort of thing we resist doing, because we look at the overall cost/benefit of doing it and shy away from the cost to other users.
Sbihour
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Tim Dawson - 10/13/2020 8:00:46 AM
Are these really EASA rules?

Hi Tim, 
Sorry to bother everyone one with regulation. This is not my cup of tea but I prefer to give approriate references.

Yes, these are EU rules (and not only french ones) : 

Day-VFR rules are in the Annex of the 923/2012 regulation, in article SERA.2005(f)
=> those rules are EU-wide

Night-VFR rules are in SERA.2005(c)(5)
=> night rules are defined on a local basis, but the figures mentioned are default one
("VFR flight at night shall be flown at a level which is not below the minimum flight altitude established by the State whose territory is overflown, or, where no such minimum flight altitude has been established: (...)"
=> The only french-specific is that over non-montainous areas, the minimum level is set to 1500 ft, whereas EU defaut rule is only 1000 ft (over montainous areas, the limit is the same : 2000ft)

Back from legal things to much more fun ones (flying !), my problem is not setting the appropriate value in SD, it is that when planning I need to modify back and forth between day or night rules, overwise I have a lot of alerts (when night flying with day settings) or no alert at all while it should (day flight with night settings).

And I do not want to set a night/day setting and have to add/substract 500 or 1000 ft in the sky... things must be simple and set on the ground when planning, not while flying !

To me obstacle clearance is something important, and I'm looking for something easy, for every kind of VFR flight. That's what SD is good at, so I ask if such day/night setting is possible or not.

thanks for reading,

Sylvain.



grahamb
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pilot-byom - 10/13/2020 9:14:30 AM
Tim Dawson - 10/13/2020 8:00:46 AM
Are these really EASA rules?

No, that is just French. I fear little use for large efforts in implementing the feature request per country. I guess you are not really into parsing the different AIP ...

I don't see the problem. Just set up the MSA rules in 'setup' to suit your worst case (i.e. night) and just subtract 500' or 1000' (according to your flavour of regulator) from the PLOG MSA figure when VFR during the day.

You can then check in even more detail by using the 'colour high terrain' option in both planning and flight.


Edited 10/13/2020 11:19:36 AM by grahamb
pilot-byom
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Tim Dawson - 10/13/2020 8:00:46 AM
Are these really EASA rules?

No, that is just French. I fear little use for large efforts in implementing the feature request per country. I guess you are not really into parsing the different AIP ...

Tim Dawson
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Are these really EASA rules?
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