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ED-R150, NVFR-Routes


ED-R150, NVFR-Routes

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Telefisch
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Hi Forum,
t‌oday I planned to start a trip at night and in the NOTAMS I saw several messages about restricted area 150.
I‌ could not find this area in the german charts. This should be ED-R for military night flights so it would not be fun to fly in there.
H‌ow can I be sure not to fly into these ED-Rs?

.‌..and why couldn't I find any ED-R by searching with STRG+F ?‌‌
Edited
11/22/2017 2:04:27 PM by Telefisch
SemperFi
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My opinion: Skydemon is not suitable for night flying in Germany currently. You have to go to milais.org before flight and check the AUP before flying by night there - the WebAUP is pretty good, but, yes, relevant night data is not in Skydemon. The general EDR150 structure you'll find i.e. here: https://www.dfs.de/dfs_homepage/de/Services/Newsletter/VFR-Newsletter-Archiv/2016/VFR-Newsletter%20Ausgabe%2001-2016/NLFS%20ED-R%20150.pdf
Edited
11/22/2017 4:23:02 PM by SemperFi
Hetzenauer
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Well, I think not displaying an activated restricted area is quite sad for a software that started as an aid for pilots to avoid flying into any airspaces unintentionally.
I heared a lot of German pilots complaining about it since any violation will be punished as a criminal offense.
The developers might do well by rethinking their ignoring policy here.
My 2 cents...
Björn
SemperFi
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Hetzenauer - 1/4/2018 7:03:16 PM
Well, I think not displaying an activated restricted area is quite sad for a software that started as an aid for pilots to avoid flying into any airspaces unintentionally.
I heared a lot of German pilots complaining about it since any violation will be punished as a criminal offense.
The developers might do well by rethinking their ignoring policy here.
My 2 cents...
Björn

If you search this forum you will find that the Skydemon crew is quite clear on it = on not supporting EDR150. Quite consequently, right now Skydemon is not for you if you plan to fly at night in German airspace - that simple. And yes, if you ever hit an active leg of EDR150 you will be in deep shit.

Hetzenauer
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May I ask whether you‘re affiliated or connected to SD? Or do you share my request?
I cannot agree SD would be useless for night flying in Germany - in contrary it is a quite powerful tool if you think of approach plates, easy frequency finding and IFR waypoints etc.
I simply ask for the possibility to see the ED-R on the chart, maybe manually enabled as kind of an overlay or something. Needs not to be synced to activation times.
I believe it‘s important for the dev‘s to know about their customer‘s needs...
See you up there,
Björn
SemperFi
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I am only a customer of Skydemon, but I do no longer use it for night flying VFR in Germany. My feeling - it is far too dangerous to hit something bad or overlook a NOTAM by the method SD uses. I switched to an IFR solution for night flying.

‌German EDR150 is a not well thought local speciality with very bad implementation at authorities level from the beginning. I am not sure it is worth the effort to built a special solution as Skydemon focus is more European general. How far into the local peculiarities are they supposed to go, even trying to cure bad implementations as EDR150? Yes, one could try to extract the definition of the spider web from the written, artificially build the airspaces from legs and try to parse the NOTAMs, but it is major effort for only a very little group of people. The rest would have to cross finance the labor, are they willing to do so?

‌I would rather see put pressure on the relevant authorities to "repair EDR150". They could electronically divide the EDR150 into theirs legs and activate them according to real use, instead of simply throwing these stupid EDR150 list NOTAMs. No, I am currently not supporting the request to implement EDR150 into Skydemon - major reason, the programming crew seems to be not behind the idea, which will result in a bad implementation. I choose to have a clear "no support" instead of an unknown buggy one.
Edited
1/7/2018 9:26:40 AM by SemperFi
Tim Dawson
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We are a small step closer to having this information in SkyDemon. Behind the scenes we now have a flag for airspace which sets its applicability to "night only" and will therefore soon implement a switch to see airspaces which are only applicable at night. We plan to set this for the new LANTA restricted areas in Germany.

EDR‌150 is different though, in that unfortunately its coordinates are not well-defined. It is defined as a document with lots of coordinates but they are ambiguous as to how exactly they're connected, with lots of room for interpretation. We are attempting to get official coordinates for the areas because this document is not fit for purpose. I will report back here with any results.‌
Hetzenauer
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Great news, thank you for your efforts!
Take your time Sir, my next night flight will be in October... ;-)
Greets, Björn
Tim Dawson
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The official response is below. At this stage, we will therefore not be attempting to add EDR150 into SkyDemon.

"The external boundary of the current ED-R 150 is defined by almost 600 overlaying air space corridors. This kind of definition is not suitable for database usage. At this time, the ED-R 150 in total does only exist as a graphical file and is printed on the respective low level chart.

Both, experts from DFS Deutsche Flugsicherung GmbH and the German Airforce are preparing a review of the night low level flying system (NLFS). This might include a recalculation.

Due to political and juridical regulations for military low level flights this task evolves to be a demanding and time consuming process. Therefore no time frame has been created so far.

As a result of this, no ED-R 150 can be published in the EAD within a plannable time frame. In general DFS Deutsche Flugsicherung GmbH wants to administer and publish all official air spaces in Germany. It has to be clarified whether exceptions for the ED-R 150 will be possible."

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Thanks for posting their answer here, Tim.
It seems to be an issue that has to be discussed in the forum of German airspace experts since it involves all small aircraft operations after sunset. I informed them about this matter.
Once again thanks for all your efforts!
Best, Björn
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