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SkyEcho with SkyDemon


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Colin Bond
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I am considering purchasing a SkyEcho ADS-B but before I depart with £600, please can anyone provide a testimonial?
piermauro
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Colin Bond - 11/2/2017 6:06:17 PM
I am considering purchasing a SkyEcho ADS-B but before I depart with £600, please can anyone provide a testimonial?

I've got it 1 month ago.
‌It works, I was nonetheless unable to get c transporder's presence on the map. For me, in Italy this is the most valuable presence, since few ads-b out and few s transponders are installed as compared with c transponders.
‌I have understood the following:
‌A) You get ONLY ads-b and S transponders on SD map if you do not broadcast OUT signal with your sky echo OR if you broadcast OUT but you leave ICAO Number value at 000000
‌ B) You get all traffic (c transponders included) if you broadcast OUT and you set echo configuration with a valid ICAO Number

‌Me, as C Transponder owner, I am not bearing any ICAO Number to fill in (which is given to S Transponder's owner), sop I am unable to get the best part of information i.e. another aircraft close to me with a C transponder.


tnowak
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Piermauro,
Mode C and Mode S transponder data does not ‌contain any position information, so you won't see it using Skydemon.
You may want to look at PilotAware (http://forum.pilotaware.com). This this has a Mode C and S detect capability that works on relative received signal strength to give an approximate indication of how close the transponding aircraft may be to you.
Skydemon will display PAW data.
Tony‌ ‌ ‌

‌‌‌
TouchTheSky
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tnowak - 11/3/2017 8:40:38 AM
Piermauro,
Mode C and Mode S transponder data does not ‌contain any position information, so you won't see it using Skydemon.
You may want to look at PilotAware (http://forum.pilotaware.com). This this has a Mode C and S detect capability that works on relative received signal strength to give an approximate indication of how close the transponding aircraft may be to you.
Skydemon will display PAW data.
Tony‌ ‌ ‌

‌‌‌

Besides PilotAware also the AirAvionics TRX-1500 and the FLARM PowerFlarm devices are detecting Mode C/S transponders and are transmitting it to SD. I am not aware of any other devices that would have that capability.
Stefan‌
Tim Dawson
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The SkyEcho is an ADS-B device. It does not claim to support the display of plain mode C and mode S data, and does not do so.

The display of plain mode C and S data (i.e. "there is an aircraft somewhere around, at about your height, but we don't know where") is a useless feature (in my humble opinion) serving only to distract the pilot with a warning telling something they should already be assuming. ‌‌
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Tim Dawson - 11/8/2017 11:28:16 AM
The SkyEcho is an ADS-B device. It does not claim to support the display of plain mode C and mode S data, and does not do so.

The display of plain mode C and S data (i.e. "there is an aircraft somewhere around, at about your height, but we don't know where") is a useless feature (in my humble opinion) serving only to distract the pilot with a warning telling something they should already be assuming. ‌‌

This is why SkyDemon has an option to switch off this "useless feature", right? Honestly, please leave this feature as it is, there are hundreds if not thousands of TRX devices in the air (at least in Germany, not all at the same time though) and I am pretty sure that a substantial amount of pilots use this feature (including myself).
Tim Dawson
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It's off by default.
T67M
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I find Mode C/S traffic alerting an incredibly useful feature already, although of course it would be improved even more by the adoption of TIS/TIS-B here in the UK. Regrettably the CAA and NATS seem unwilling to even consider doing something so obviously useful.
Peter Robertson
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Tim,

‌‌Please don’t take this personally, it is NOT an attack on yourself, SkyDemon, or for that matter SkyEcho as I use that too. As you know, I am a long term SD user, beta tester, supporter and ‘champion’ and would dearly like to remain so.

‌‌As an experienced pilot and electronic conspicuity ‘developer’ (with PilotAware) however, I am extremely shocked, disappointed and worried by your statement above that ‘The display of plain Mode C and S data....is a useless feature....serving only to distract the pilot with a warning telling something they should already be assuming’. On the contrary, provided the pilot understands that these alerts are real and knows what (s)he as pilot needs to do in response, the provision of visual and particularly audible alerts (with relative altitude) for bearingless targets can be - and I can say from personal experience - often are, a life saver!

‌‌You must know as well as I do that despite our best efforts there are still far more Mode C and S transponders in use out there in GA aircraft than ADSB or other compatible 'known position' devices and given the obvious reticence within the GA community to upgrade from Mode C over the 30 years since Mode S was introduced, that situation is unlikely to change significantly in the near future unless adoption of ADSB is made mandatory. Taken together with the high number of aircraft - including drones and other remotely controlled devices - with no electronic conspicuity whatsoever and the proven ineffectiveness of the human eye as a reliable aircraft detector, reliance solely on visual scan represents a significant pilot workload and potential source of stress, which can be effectively reduced by supplementing visual scan with appropriate ‘electronic alerts’ - including those for ‘bearingless’ targets.

‌‌Rather than disrespecting the considerable work of others (myself included) to bring EFFECTIVE bearingless target alerts to the flying community, by rubbishing the benefits of bearingless target alerts, we should be working together to improve bearingless target alerting, by for example SkyDemon adding the climb and descent arrows for bearingless targets which you promised over a year ago after PilotAware was specifically adjusted at your request to supply the relevant climb / descent data.

‌‌I am extremely disappointed that SkyDemon now seems to be heading down a different path. Other Nav System developers appear prepared to consider the safety of ALL their customers - not just those adopting ADSB - and continue to provide and improve their bearingless target warnings to cope with multiple targets and climb/descent indicators. I would like to think SkyDemon would do the same - if not better! I'm sure PilotAware will continue to work with all those interested in achieving a similar end, or do we just abandon all those not prepared, or not able, to follow down the ADSB route to their inevitable fate. I for one certainly hope not!

‌‌This post represents my own personal views and opinion and should not be construed as in any way reflecting those of the rest of the PilotAware Development Team.

‌‌Best Regards as always

‌Peter
(‌exfirepro)
Edited 11/18/2017 12:29:58 AM by Peter Robertson
Peter Robertson
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SemperFi,

Y‌ou say...

‌"‌I see detecting A/C XPDR signals as quite limited benefit and do mostly agree with Tim. These current electronic gadgets tend to fool and lull pilots into wrong device dependencies and I see that as critical risk. And it is not a potential risk, but a real one, as far as I can tell from recent check rides."

Me...

‌I can't disagree with the issue of pilots becoming 'drawn in' by new gadgets, but that is a matter of training and education, not banning their use - or we would have to ban every instrument over the minimum actually required to fly the aircraft. Please don't for one second think that changing everything to ADSB will improve this situation - if anything the opposite will apply as pilots become even more 'misinformed' that they see everything on screen.

Y‌ou go on to say....‌

‌"‌I do use several traffic detection devices in the training aircraft for demonstration purpose, the current list is: certified full active hybride TCAS II, mobile Monroy-ATD300 for XPDR detection (no directional antenna fitted), PowerFlarm and last year added, Stratux and Pilotaware, simply because people asked for it. They all give certain aspects for collision avoidance, some more efficient, some less, but - my very personal opinion only - the Stratux and Pilotaware are a waste of money, almost useless and even on the rim to dangerous for certain pilots.

‌I am an avowed opponent of DIY and especially the pilotaware/STRATUX approach, so definitely biased. My major concerns are two thing - first the aforementioned lull effect on increasingly irresponsible pilots and second the lack of automatic cut-off of the signals in airspaces where the transmission is illegal. The latter may, and definitely has to, be solved very quickly, the first is a contemporary threat we may not be able to get rid of.‌‌"

Me...

‌S‌o you obviously accept that there is a role for the 'right' aircraft awareness tools‌, but have an admitted bias against anything DIY

‌‌ PilotAware ISN'T DIY - it is a commercial product made available at a DIY price to maximise its availability to users who can't afford (or can't fit) expensive devices such as TCAS, by a group of highly qualified individuals who had the foresight to grasp the mid-air collisions nettle and do something about it long before the CAA finally got round to making its mind up. Two of the team have already been recognised for their foresight by the RAeC and the LAA as well as receiving official recognition for the effectiveness of the PilotAware system from most UK aviation groups including the UK Airprox Board.

I‌f you are finding PilotAware 'almost useless' there is obviously either a fault in your unit or installation or you have it set up incorrectly. Happy to help if needed.‌

N‌ot sure where you get the idea by the way that use of the 869MHz open licence frequency is 'illegal'‌ in ANY airspace - can you provide a reference to support this? If it is illegal there will be lots of (admittedly mainly non-aviation) users of the frequency with significant equipment replacement problems.

I‌'m NOT saying you are wrong in your opinion, but having spent many flying hours developing Mode S and then Mode C detection, I can confirm that the latest version used by PilotAware is extremely effective, doesn't give any 'false' alerts ( though there is always going to be a slight 'range' issue with high power CAT transponders) and when used correctly will DEFINITELY save lives - it has already saved mine on at least two occasions, when other - presumably blind - pilots, obviously relying on 'unsupported visual scan' (or with their eyes stuck inside the cockpit) almost flew into me - on one occasion twice, despite me flying with full strobes, navigation and landing lights on and broadcasting my position on High Power Mode S-ES (ADSB), PilotAware and FLARM. On both occasions the aircraft descended onto me from behind, above my wing and were it not for the alerts provided by PilotAware allowing me to take avoiding action, they would certainly have taken me out of the sky - probably without ever seeing me!

THAT is why I am keen to see that bearingless target detection and alerting remains an effective part of SkyDemon.

B‌est Regards
P‌eter
Edited 11/18/2017 11:31:10 AM by Peter Robertson
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