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Tim Dawson
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We use identifiers wherever they legally comply with ICAO flightplans. In short, they need to be three or five letter identifiers. Anything else cannot be included in an international flightplan in that form so they get converted to coordinates, which are allowed.
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ckurz7000
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+xWe use identifiers wherever they legally comply with ICAO flightplans. In short, they need to be three or five letter identifiers. Anything else cannot be included in an international flightplan in that form so they get converted to coordinates, which are allowed. Yes, technically you are correct. However, coordinates are allowed in theory but not accepted in practice (in VFR flight plans). So pilots are left in the middle. Who is your loyalty to? (Sorry, I know that's not quite fair...) -- Chris.
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Tim Dawson
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Coordinates are accepted by the widest variety of receiving systems. Flightplans are by their nature international, and the insertion of nonstandard items into a flightplan to please one controlling authority often completely invalidates the flightplan in the other controlling authorities which receive them.
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ckurz7000
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+xCoordinates are accepted by the widest variety of receiving systems. Flightplans are by their nature international, and the insertion of nonstandard items into a flightplan to please one controlling authority often completely invalidates the flightplan in the other controlling authorities which receive them. Hasn't happened to me yet. It seems that the much more prevelant case is the other one.
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Easy Cruising
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+x+xWe use identifiers wherever they legally comply with ICAO flightplans. In short, they need to be three or five letter identifiers. Anything else cannot be included in an international flightplan in that form so they get converted to coordinates, which are allowed. Yes, technically you are correct. However, coordinates are allowed in theory but not accepted in practice (in VFR flight plans). So pilots are left in the middle. Who is your loyalty to? (Sorry, I know that's not quite fair...) -- Chris. It is not correct to say that coordinates are not accepted in practice in VFR flight plans. I use unaltered FPL's from SD to travel between Germany and France all the time and the FPL's have always been accepted so far.
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Tim Dawson
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Anecdotally there certainly never seems to be a problem with the larger countries where the most GA activity takes place.
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rjmusto
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Is it really so difficult to make this an option?
As a pilot based in Slovenia, I can say for certain that co-ordinates are not accepted here in a FP. Here's a response I received this morning:
"FPL S5DJJ-LJPZ1115-LJBL NOT ACCEPTED
REF AIP SLOVENIA ENR 1.10 PARA 1.3. B. SPECIAL ARANGEMENTS FOR IFR AND VFR FLIGHTS (ICAO NOTIFICATION OF DIFFERENCE) FLIGHT PLANS WITH FLIGHT ROUTES CROSSING FIR LJLA BOUNDARY OR VOLUMES OF CONTROL AIRSPACE SHALL INCLUDE OFFICIALLY PUBLISHED ENTRY/EXIT REPORTING POINTS.
COORDINATES OR ANY OTHER NAMES ARE NOT ALLOWED THEREFORE SUCH FPL WILL BE REJECTED.
BRGDS
ARO SLOVENIA"
Ok, I understand that I can manually alter the field, but this takes away the convenience of using SD for the submission - it's simpler just to submit the plan with a phone call.
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Easy Cruising
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+xIs it really so difficult to make this an option? As a pilot based in Slovenia, I can say for certain that co-ordinates are not accepted here in a FP. Here's a response I received this morning: "FPL S5DJJ-LJPZ1115-LJBL NOT ACCEPTED REF AIP SLOVENIA ENR 1.10 PARA 1.3. B. SPECIAL ARANGEMENTS FOR IFR AND VFR FLIGHTS (ICAO NOTIFICATION OF DIFFERENCE) FLIGHT PLANS WITH FLIGHT ROUTES CROSSING FIR LJLA BOUNDARY OR VOLUMES OF CONTROL AIRSPACE SHALL INCLUDE OFFICIALLY PUBLISHED ENTRY/EXIT REPORTING POINTS. COORDINATES OR ANY OTHER NAMES ARE NOT ALLOWED THEREFORE SUCH FPL WILL BE REJECTED. BRGDS ARO SLOVENIA" Ok, I understand that I can manually alter the field, but this takes away the convenience of using SD for the submission - it's simpler just to submit the plan with a phone call.
1. SD does enter the Entry/Exit Point names in the route section of the fpl
After my original post SD changed the system so that Entry/Exit points are included in the FPL using their names. Some other 'vfr' points inside Slovenia are given as coordinates. However, the AIP ENR 1.10 PARA 1.3. B that you quote seems only to refer to entry/exit points to Slovenia, so this should be ok. Did you have a problem with the internal 'vfr' points ? SD should have included the entry exit points with their names (if you have an up to date version of SD) ... check the FPL fully..maybe they were there ?
I also have a feeling that the Slovenia ATC may even be interpreting the AIP incorrectly, since it doesn't refer to the need to name the 'internal' vfr points, only the entry/exit ones.
2. SD still does weird fpl routing for internal points (SkyDemon Plan 3.7)
If one creates a route with the exact waypoints as follows :
LDRI ALIVO KOCEVJE TREBNJE RADECE CELJE RADLY LOWG
... SD puts this in the fpl:
DCT ALIVO VFR6 4554N01501E VFR1 CELJE/N0131A059 VFR1 RADLY/N0129A050 DCT
It looks like SD is putting in some inland/internal point names but not all. ALIVO is in as name only, TREBNJE is given as coordinates, RADECE is missed-out and CELJE and RADLY are named and provided with some odd looking coordinates too. Seems inconsistent to me. Could be a bug.
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rjmusto
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My flight was an internal one and SD submitted the plan with all co-ordinates. And as I posted previously, the authorities here rejected it. You might be right that, technically, they shouldn't, but it does seem that Slovenia has an agreed exception for this with ICAO. For any cross-border routes I do, SD does use the names for the entry/exit points, but it looks like I will have to hand modify any internal ones.
Since the PLOG is produced with names, it is a pity that there is not an option to choose this for the FP also.
My understanding, by the way, is that Austria also wants names and not co-ordinates. I'll find out soon what happens when we fly into Italy from Slovenia - could be we end up with a mixture of names and co-ordianates......
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Tim Dawson
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The changes we made as (partially) a result of this thread were to include VRP identifiers in a flightplan if they conform with ICAO flightplan rules (3 or 5 letters). Since the Slovenian entry/exit points do conform, this has solved the original problem.
Other VRP names which are basically just towns etc will be converted to coordinates and if you want the original name in your flightplan you will need to modify it accordingly.
I believe there is a bug in the current public version where the names of VFR routes will be inserted into the flightplan as if they were ATS routes, which they are not; this has been solved for the next public release.
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