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Adam Erchegyi
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+xOver the years we have indeed had a few people ask for the Swiss towns in our chart to match those in the Swiss ICAO chart. It's not clear what those people would expect to happen to the town selection upon zooming in and out, though. The difference is understandable, and the behaviour is accepted. On the other hand, you need to understand that these towns are regularly referenced by FIS as reporting points. I was asked countless times to report "Weesen" (town west of Walensee, usually used due to being on the edge of an - published! - radio/radar no-coverage zone), "Horw" (very distinct point next to Vierwaldstättersee, used to circumnavigate complex military CTR structure), and many more. The problem is: - These towns are not labeled in SkyDemon, even when zoomed in to the maximum possible level
- They turn up in search inconsistently
- You don't seem to care to add them, regardless of people sending you lists
So we are left with the usage of custom waypoints (make the map look like hell) or experience - so we know all these points by heart. None of them is really an option for visiting pilots. An optimal solution would be to maintain such a list as part of the SD database and prioritize displaying their label.
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paalia
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+xAs far as I can tell, you are talking about towns. Towns are not aeronautical data, and they are certainly not ICAO entities. If they were aeronautically-significant, they would be part of AIP Switzerland and we would include them, likely as VRPs.
Chart authors pick which towns they show in the scenery of a chart either cartographically or algorithmically. Because our charts are vector-based and zoomable to any scale, towns are selected algorithmically based on population size. They are not designed to match the town selections of any other chart.
Over the years we have indeed had a few people ask for the Swiss towns in our chart to match those in the Swiss ICAO chart. It's not clear what those people would expect to happen to the town selection upon zooming in and out, though. Thanks for your reply. I am not talking about towns per se, I am talking specifically about reference points on the official Swiss ICAO charts (which often happen to be towns).
If I understand you correctly, SkyDemon will display towns or (random?/non VRP) reference points dynamically based on zoom level.
What I fail to understand is why you couldn't cross reference the ICAO chart, and ensure that the towns/reference points documented there, are persistently displayed on SkyDemon, regardless of zoom level?
While I acknowledge that these points may not be AIP/REP points; fact is those base chart points are important and generally used in communication when flying VFR in Switzerland.
As others in this thread have noted, lists have been previously provided for that purpose, but it seems nothing was done with that data? I'm not sure how technically hard it is to implement what I suggested above, but I imagine you already have the tools to do so?
I do have to say, that for a new pilot such as myself, the lack of these points is a bit of a deal breaker..
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Tim Dawson
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I do not believe we have ever received any such "list" because there is no official list. They are not aeronautical data. The problem is, it seems ATC in Switzerland often use the same ICAO chart, and have adopted the towns listed on that chart as unofficial VRPs.
There is an implication in the last two posts that we possess tools to pick and choose which towns are selected in our maps at individual zoom levels. We do not. Could we develop those tools? Sure, but at present, Switzerland is the only country in which this seems to be an issue, and even then, we do not hear about it very often. Do ensure you have contacted customer support to let them know about this, so we can ensure that we record your desire for our chart to include those towns.
I appreciate this is more likely to be a problem for new pilots who have probably trained with the ICAO chart and have not yet moved on to charts from other providers, with the inherent differences therein.
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paalia
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Group: Forum Members
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+xI do not believe we have ever received any such "list" because there is no official list. They are not aeronautical data. The problem is, it seems ATC in Switzerland often use the same ICAO chart, and have adopted the towns listed on that chart as unofficial VRPs. There is an implication in the last two posts that we possess tools to pick and choose which towns are selected in our maps at individual zoom levels. We do not. Could we develop those tools? Sure, but at present, Switzerland is the only country in which this seems to be an issue, and even then, we do not hear about it very often. Do ensure you have contacted customer support to let them know about this, so we can ensure that we record your desire for our chart to include those towns. I appreciate this is more likely to be a problem for new pilots who have probably trained with the ICAO chart and have not yet moved on to charts from other providers, with the inherent differences therein.
I do not believe we have ever received any such "list"I see, I was just referencing what other users had posted in this forum on the topic before me.
The problem is, it seems ATC in Switzerland often use the same ICAO chart, and have adopted the towns listed on that chart as unofficial VRPs.Indeed, hence it's also not just a problem for new pilots, but also pilots unfamiliar with Swiss airspace.
There is an implication in the last two posts that we possess tools to pick and choose which towns are selected in our maps at individual zoom levels. We do not. That is insightful and surprising,I did indeed expect that you guys had a 'tight' grip on all chart data including towns etc. but it makes sense why you wouldn't want to get into that.
Do ensure you have contacted customer support to let them know about this, so we can ensure that we record your desire for our chart to include those towns.
Will do so!
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Nik
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I don’t think this is primarily a “new pilot” issue — it’s an operational one.
In Switzerland, many town names shown on the ICAO chart have effectively become de facto reporting points over years of real-world use. ATC and pilots consistently rely on them, regardless of experience level.
Right now, this creates a real mismatch when using SkyDemon.
Some further concrete examples:
- Schwarzenburg (Bern area) is used very frequently on the radio, yet it does not appear in SkyDemon at any zoom level — even when there are no competing nearby labels.
- Interlaken, a globally known reference point and commonly used in aviation, is missing. Instead, only Unterseen is shown, which is far less relevant in practice.
- On Lake Geneva, Vevey is widely used by pilots, but it is not labeled, while smaller or less operationally relevant places (e.g. La Tour-de-Peilz) are displayed.
This is not just a cartographic difference — it directly affects situational awareness and radio communication. If a pilot uses SkyDemon as primary reference, they may simply not find the names that are actually used on frequency.
I understand the argument that towns are not “aeronautical data.” However, in Switzerland they clearly function as unofficial VRPs. Ignoring that reality creates friction in daily operations.
From a user perspective, the current situation is hard to justify — especially when important, commonly used reference points are missing, while less relevant ones are shown.
If SkyDemon cannot easily adapt this centrally, I would strongly support a workaround driven by the community:
- A shared, curated list of commonly used Swiss reporting points (towns).
- Possibly distributed as user waypoints for import into SkyDemon.
- Maintained collaboratively by active pilots to reflect real-world usage.
If others here are interested, I’m happy to help organize this and start collecting inputs.
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Tim Dawson
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Group: Forum Members
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I am happy to do the work on the SkyDemon side to adapt our chart to ensure that those towns are displayed on our charts at 1:500k scale. However at present I do not have time to examine the ICAO chart to identify the towns it has that we are missing, and I also lack the local experience to know which of those missing towns are actually used by ATC.
If you would be willing to provide a list of towns, in CSV format, with their names and coordinates, then I will be happy to do the work on our side to ensure they are visible. How does that sound, as an interim workaround? I will make sure that we express our gratitude for your work accordingly.
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Nik
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+xI am happy to do the work on the SkyDemon side to adapt our chart to ensure that those towns are displayed on our charts at 1:500k scale. However at present I do not have time to examine the ICAO chart to identify the towns it has that we are missing, and I also lack the local experience to know which of those missing towns are actually used by ATC.
If you would be willing to provide a list of towns, in CSV format, with their names and coordinates, then I will be happy to do the work on our side to ensure they are visible. How does that sound, as an interim workaround? I will make sure that we express our gratitude for your work accordingly. Great! I was in contact with GIS@CH - they officialy publish the ICAO-Map. From there I now, that the cities in the ICAO-Map is a raster-map-overlay. They sent me the file (tiff), but this can't be used - or as a special overlay as the airfield-charts???. But this is another requirement...
Well, GIS is not the owner. I have 2 more possible sources (skyguide and swisstopo) I will contact and ask for more structured data.
There is another CH-speciality. Smaller cities are dots, thats easy. But other, bigger ones are areas (eg Vevey at lake geneva). Only above these special marked cities, we have a higer minimum altitude. Unfortunatly it does not correspond with the "populated areas" marked in a dark yellow in SD. Would be possible to define a city as a dot and another as a polygone?
As soon I have more information, I will share it.
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Tim Dawson
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Group: Forum Members
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No, not at present. You are unlikely to get hold of the data in a form that is useful. As I said, somebody needs to manually identify the towns that have been chosen to be displayed on that chart, and which are used as unofficial VRPs, and make a spreadsheet with them and their coordinates. I imagine there really aren't all that many, maybe 50?
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