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FPL from Channel Islands to France


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DaveWhite
DaveWhite
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Following a discussion on Facebook, it's been noted that SD doesn't identify that a Flight Plan is required from, say, Jersey to Cherbourg.

This may be because the CI are already in the Brest FIR, and so a boundary crossing doesn't happen and hence nothing is triggered.

But I'm sure that a Flightplan is required on that route. Does SD need tweaking?

(I looked to see if this query had arisen before, and surprisingly it doesn't seem to have. Apologies in advance if it has, and I missed it!)

Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
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Possibly. You can file a flightplan for any SkyDemon flight, but we also prompt you when we think one will be necessary. Is it the prompting you feel could be improved? I think we use a fairly simplistic (and fast) method for doing this at the moment by simply comparing the start and destination FIR codes.
DaveWhite
DaveWhite
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Hi Tim, yes it was the prompting (or not, in this instance) that I had in mind.

The requirements are so complex, and SD is typically so good at prompting the requirement for GAR and FPL (and non-UK "GAR" equivalents), that in most cases that I suspect people will come to rely on it to tell them when they do/don't need to submit.

In this instance it is quite possible that not being prompted to submit an FPL for France to/from CI would lead many pilots to think one isn't required.

Sure, it's their responsibility to know better, and I suspect CI ATC might well catch the error in practice, but I feel it would be an SD enhancement if the prompt appeared in these cases.

9 times out of 10 the FIR comparison method is simple and elegant and correct. But then a wrinkle in this complicated requirement turns up, like here. 

Edited 7/23/2018 2:58:43 PM by DaveWhite
Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
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We will add a special case for entry to or leaving from the channel islands.
Ralf Rösch
R
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Hello,

I feel, finding a suitable algorihm for requirements of a FP is really (too?) complex and the risk is, the more sophisticated the algorithm is, the more the people take the "recommendation for granted"
Example: Flights from Germany to Austria normally does not require a flightplan (SD recommends one), but when landing in an controlled airspace in Austria, you will need one. So, already two rules for only from Germany to Austria, from Austria to Germany is different again. And I can imagine lots of complex rules in other cases.
So iI think, giving a recommendation according to FIR-comparison suits ok as a quick and simple recommendation. Buts of course in this case, maybe one recommendation too much (positive fail) is better than one to less

Best regards
Ralf

Ralf Rösch
R
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Hi again,

I just played around a little bit. I think, the point is, that the existing algorithm fails, when the FIRs (controlled from different countries) are not exactly aligned to the real county borders. This is the case e.g. for EDGG and LSAS
Example: EDTS (Schwenningen) and EDTZ (Konstanz) are both in Germany, but EDTS is FIR EDGG and EDTZ is FIR LSAS, consequently SD recommends a flightplan (but to be honest, EDTZ is THE ONLY german airfield in LSAS, therefore an absolute exception)
But obviously, with the Channel islands and Cherbourg, the same situation applies (and there are maybe more elsewhere in the world)

Maybe an improvement could be, taking this situation into account and check also the real country borders (I do not know, wether this is possible or not with the existing data)

But this enhancement would not cover the specialities as stated in my previous post.

br from EDTS
Ralf
Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
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It isn't our goal to make SkyDemon provide a definitive answer as to whether a flightplan is legally required or not, but to offer guidance. I agree with your sentiments. The Channel Islands case is common enough and the solution was easy enough that it was worth implementing.
DaveWhite
DaveWhite
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Tim, belated thanks for your 25/7 decision. I should come here more often. Wink
GO

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