Hi,

I would like to purchase Skydemon, but there is one thing that is holding me off. I tested Jeppesen Mobile Flitedeck, Garmin Pilot and Air Navigatioin Pro and Skydemon intensely. I like Skydemon with all it´s features the best. But the only thing that is missing and is for me absolute essential and that it is the bearing indicator. I don´t mean just showing it on the map or the HSI, I meant showing it in the upper row next to the distance to a waypoint in numbers of degree.
I don´t know one GPS application ever since I am flying, that doesn´t have this feature. And the is a reason for it. Because it is one of the basics, that every GPS must have.
For example when I am flying and I am off course to my next waypoint, I look on the GPS and read the bearing, put my heading bug on the course and fly to the waypoint. Or even when I am on course, I read the bearing sometimes just to check my compass.

I know that this was discussed before but and I understand, that you can´t fulfill every single whish of just one user. But please think about it again, it would make your program just perfect. Skydemon does not have to fear, by adding  a feature, that all the other programs have, not to be any different any more. I am sure that by how far Skydemon came by now, other programs try to copy it, because it is so good.

Happy Landings an greetings from Bavaria ( www.edmy.de )

Start simulation or go flying
SD logo - Setup - Instruments - show track

-mike

I think what Bumblebee means is that he would like to see an extra box, so as to see both Track and Bearing, and I fully agree with him.

I agree, the bearing is an information I still look for, event if knowing it does not (really) appear on SD.
It's sometimes annoying, since reading a single value is way more (intellectually) efficient than transposing a rubber band to a route.

I'd love to see the bearing as part of the instrument's choices.

If this bearing instrument existed, what would you do with the reading? It's not like you could turn to that bearing with your compass/DI because that would fail to take wind into account. That's the reason there has never been an actual bearing instrument in SkyDemon. The closest is the compass wheel at the bottom of the map, which shows your current track and the bearing to reach your next waypoint. Lining those two up means that wind doesn't have to be considered.

I am sure people are using it on the the compass rose and are dragging the rose to the screen so they can see it if they are more than 40 or 50° away from the bearing. But on the other hand it would be much more convenient to look at that given the degree number and turn the airplane to that course. I say that wind in this moment does not play that much of a role. Say I fly to a waypoint and stop over a certain place and do a couple of turns because of what reason ever and I want to continue my flights to the given waypoint I could so easily see the bearing and head to it.

Or say I'm just flying around my home airport and I mark the airport that I took off as my next way point then I will always see very quickly the bearing I have to turn to get back to the airport. I really think this is used by so many pilots especially if they are using are a fixed install GPS in the aircraft and they are flying around in the vicinity of their home airport.

I have heard that point of view before, but I don't understand it. If you've done some manoeuvring and need to reorientate yourself, you have two options, assuming that we creating this bearing instrument:

1. Look at the bearing instrument, imagine it says 179 degrees, and look at the track instrument, imagine it says 314 degrees. You have to mentally work out which way to turn, and by how much, then execute the turn while comparing the values to see when to stop turning.
2. Look at the map, where you have a clear magenta line pointing towards your next waypoint and a big line projecting from the front of your aircraft, from which you can quickly determine which way to turn and how big a turn to make.

I suppose I just don't understand how the potential solution given in option 1 is better in any way than the current solution which is option 2. Then there's always the course correction indicator, which is a collapsed version of the compass rose at the bottom of the screen, which simply shows you which way to turn and by how much. Even that is a simpler proposition than option 1 above, and it already exists.

Okay, the bearing is indicated in the HSI. But if I am too far off course I have to drag it first to the screen to see it. And then the read out it is pretty small so maybe there is a way you could at least consider to display the number above the bearing bug so it is easily to read.

But maybe I'm just too old-fashioned and the majority of users don't need this readout at all. Thanks very much for your comments and a chance to try out SkyDemon.

I am with Tim on this and fail to see the benefit of a dedicated bearing display.

First, SD can never display a bearing because you'd need actual winds at altitude for that. All SD can do is give you a number for track (which it does) and heading to the next waypoint (which it does).

If you quickly want to get on the right bearing en-route to the next waypoint you simply turn until the line projecting out from the aircraft symbol coincides with the magenta course line shown on the map. If you then look on your compass in the aircraft you can read off your bearing including wind correction and all.

-- Chris.

"First, SD can never display a bearing because you'd need actual winds at altitude for that."

First, SD is showing the magnetic bearing (little magenta bug on the HSI). Second, bearing has nothing to do with the wind.


"All SD can do is give you a number for track (which it does) and heading to the next waypoint (which it does)"

Please show me, where SD is giving a heading to the next waypoint.


Happy Landings

Bumelbee

Just in case you missed it, there's a subtle feature of the collapsed HSI.

Assuming the magenta bug is off the screen, if the number is shown on the right, you need to turn right, and if it's on the left, you need to turn left

I'd like, if I may to re-start this discussion in the hope that the good folks at SkyDemon will think again about their decision to not include a prominent display of BRG to a waypoint.
Here's why:
If I find myself running into poor weather and I decide to divert to an airfield in the 'Direct To' list.  I want a bearing to the airfield, and I want it now! I also want to be able to read it quickly and easily. I will use my DI or compass to steer the aircraft on to that bearing. I will worry about making a correction for wind in a moment.  For now, I just want to get on to a heading for that airfield.

There are other scenarios in which I would want to see prominently the current bearing to the waypoint. Yes, it is shown (sometimes) near the compass rose at the bottom of the screen, but that is tiny!  I need to put on reading glasses to read that - especially on an iPhone.
Here's the thing: I may be wrong, but I'm guessing that SkyDemon is probably the only aviation GPS that does not show BRG (sometimes DCT) as primary information.
Take a look a look at the image below. Six GPS screens, taken at random: you'll recognise WingX Pro, VFR Nav, AirNav Pro. Over to you!

Why not use the Direct To function or the Insert in Route function. SD will immediately give you the new heading to steer and if you're not immediately sure which way to turn, because you have no DI perhaps, and you want to avoid mental gymnastics in the heat of the moment, pull the compass rose out from the bottom of the screen to give you the HSI representation and the magenta heading bug will clearly indicate which way to turn to get on to your new heading.

Alternatively, use the ruler function which will provide you with a 'Direct To' heading and distance.

Mike
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Wow, I didn't see this, thank you very much! That solves the problem and clears up everything for me. Nevertheless I see that it is only showing if the HSI is minimized. Would be probably not a bad idea to put a extra field underneath the track field just to make it a bit larger. Thank you very much again for your help!

When the HSI is fully displayed then the magenta 'bug' will indicate the heading to the next waypoint.

Work's great! Additionally I found out, by pressing "Track Waypoint" I get a constant magnetically bearing displayed in the upper information row. I think I am ready to buy SD now...

Happy landings

Bumblebee

I realise that there are various ways to extract the BRG information but I do not understand why BRG cannot be made available as an 'Instrument' - up there in big numbers on the screen.
I cannot think of a single aviation GPS that does not have this very basic feature.  SD - can you explain why you don't, please?

This is how I see it. A BRG instrument provides a constantly updated bearing, uncorrected for wind, from one's current position to the next waypoint (completely superfluous when following the magenta line). If a diversion becomes necessary, before the BRG instrument can provide a bearing to the diversion airfield, a Direct To will first have to be performed, at which point SD flags up the heading required, corrected for wind and the BRG instrument immediately becomes redundant for this purpose. It seems to me, therefore, that a BRG instrument is of little practical value and would just clutter the screen. Although most other GPS navigation packages do provide a BRG instrument, it seems to me they are just following a convention established a long time ago without any original thought process. It is because SD does not follow the herd and dares to be different that uniquely sets it apart from others, and which has resulted in it becoming a market leader in the field.

I hasten to add that, other than being a very satisfied user, I have no affiliation with SD.

Mike
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timwatson, I believe we've already commented in this thread and others as to why we can't see enough justification for adding this instrument.
You've correctly noted that we're perhaps the only GPS software that doesn't show this number in large text onscreen at all times. We're also by far the most popular aviation GPS software in Europe. In my opinion these two facts are not unrelated. People in general appreciate the fact that we don't display stuff that doesn't need to be displayed.

I don't understand why including BRG in the Instruments menu causes clutter.  Surely users can choose to display it, or not.  Am I correct?

I've been using SD since it was "Sky Angel" and I've noticed that there is a healthy negativity to some suggestions before it is taken seriously and makes it to the next stage. Think about the support for iPads !!
I say "healthy" because when Tim comes back in a negative vein, it prompts more people come out of the woodwork and comment. From this he can gauge whether it is really worth involving expensive time writing or modifying the software to include the new suggestion.
I would suggest that if it is not a big undertaking to include the BRG option, why not set it up as an option in the "settings" as many other things are, and let the user decide if he/she wants it or not? 
P.S.  I absolutely love SD for its ease of use and ability to "get it the way you want it" And if it's not in the aircraft when I'm flying, then I'm practicing my circuits!!

I just want to include my view on this, as I really want an option to include a number which displays actual leg (and next leg's) heading/magnetic track. The Pilot log provides me with all the information I need, but it would be perfect and a LOT better if this would also be presented on the dynamic navigating display in SD. There are (imo) several numbers on the left hand screen that I never use and find a million times less important than the magnetic track. There should be more options for these left hand numbers, and magnetic track should be one of them =)

Ive read in this thread that the way one is supposed to deal with this problem is to turn the aircraft till the extended line from the aircraft is matching the  magneta line / next waypoint. But this is very cumbersome! Whats better to be "told" when you are piloting your aircraft: "turn more, turn more, turn a little more, just a little bit more, no too much a little bit back..." or "turn heading 054".. I would yell "jeez, just give me the bearing in numbers!!!" And thats exactly how I feel every time I try to turn to the next leg... Why is using paper (printer Pilot log) much more convenient than looking at the dynamic screen, it should not be that way...

(this is only in regard to this exact problem, I love SD for most of the other things! But I must say this is rather annoying... There is a reason many other navigation companies include the bearing, and it is not just because of history... In my opinion). 

EDIT: The magnetic track number pops up when overflying a waypoint where next leg has a different heading. This is very good, but this is the number I would like to see e.g. on the left hand side, in stead of "track T" for instance... Again, for every leg the way it is now, I have to "long press" the next leg and hit leg properties... Not very convenient =)

We do not show you a number because there is nothing you can do with that number. The number we could show would be true or magnetic track. You can't take that number and match with your compass or DI because it doesn't take wind drift into account. We sometimes know what the wind forecast is, but certainly not what the actual wind is doing. That's why matching up the bug on the rose is a good way of doing it. Or touch the rose to turn it into a correction indicator, which can simply tell you to turn right or left by X degrees.

There seems to a huge misunderstanding here.  What I and others on this thread are requesting is the display of the magnetic bearing to the next waypoint.  It is and always has been a feature of every aviation GPS ever made.  It is often displayed as 'BRG'.  SD does actually already generate this number, but you have to fiddle about to see it.

What users seem to want is BRG to be constantly displayed in large text in the same panel as 'GS', 'DST NXT', 'ETA NXT'.  It would be user-selectable from the Instruments menu in the same way as those I've listed above are.

Why is it useful? I'm shocked that SD would say "...there is nothing you can do with that number". Which is why I must assume that there is a misunderstanding.

An obvious example of what you can do with that number is when you need to divert. If I hit some weather and need to divert, I can use the Direct To function to find a nearby airfield but I want a heading and I want it now!  With BRG clearly displayed, I can turn the aircraft on to that heading, make a rough correction for wind and even if I deviate from the magenta line for any reason, I ALWAYS know the magnetic bearing to my destination.

Now let's say I overshoot my destination for some reason - as we all know, some airfields are notoriously difficult to see from the air. The magenta line is no help now because I've overshot, but the BRG display constantly tells me where the airfield is!

So in the real world you DO take that number and match it to the aircraft's DI!  You are correct - that on its own does not take drift into account, but even a novice pilot knows how to make a mental correction for the estimated wind. And if the range to the diversion is relatively short, it will work out. 

SD:  In many ways you have a good product but I can see no reason for pride in being the ONLY aviation GPS to not include this most basic and vital feature!

Does that clear up the misunderstanding?

I think we understand fully
In the situations you describe, is the value you're looking for not shown in the DI at the bottom? Also, at the point where you activate a Direct To which necessitates a significant change of heading, is the value also not momentarily displayed on the screen giving you an instant instruction?

Yes it is, but it's just tiny. In my opinion it is a very important display and for that reason it should be placed at the main bar. it would make skydemon again better and more convenient in use.

Do you think it's important for a reason you can describe that means it should be on screen all the time?
We've heard the feedback on how useful it is to see an immediate bearing if you've just diverted, or if you're changing course significantly. And we will put some thought into solving that problem. We still don't think the presence of a big Bearing instrument on screen all the time is the best solution to that problem, though, as most of the time you don't need the value (which is why it's small at the moment).

I have never missed a permanent bearing display. I like the clean and uncluttered interface SD offers and am therefore more in favor to leave it as is. Between the map with my route and track clearly displayed and the HSI instrument I have never missed a permanent bearing display.

-- Chris.

Chris, I'm with you on this.

I believe this whole issue of a BRG display is a legacy from the early days of GPS units. Prior to the advent of moving map displays, a BRG display was the ONLY way a GPS unit could provided navigational guidance. Then as technology progressed and moving map displays became the norm, the BRG display just got carried over because, either no one gave any consideration as to whether or not it was still required, or they were reluctant to drop something that had been the GPS's raison d'etre for so long. Then SD comes along, with their 'clean slate -- nothing is sacred' approach, resulting in (to quote a well known advert for a certain alcoholic beverage) 'probably the best GPS software in the world' and getting better with every release. I firmly believe that the competition continues to maintain the anachronism of a BRG display, only because 'that's the way it's always been done.' 


Mike
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I personally don't have a need for a bearing display, but could be a compromise for those who do, which would be to have the TRK instrument alternate between BRG(T)/BRG(M)/TRK(T)/TRK(M) when it is tapped in a similar way to the ETE(next)/ETE(end)/ETA(next)/ETA(end)  instrument. This would not produce any on-screen additional clutter and remove the need for the TRUE/MAGNETIC track setup option?

Simon

Skypainter - I'm not sure if you are a pilot or not, but I have to tell you that it is complete nonsense to suggest that the likes of Garmin, Rockwell Collins, Bendix King and every aviation GPS made retains Bearing information because that's the way it's always been done! Of course not!!

Tim Dawson - I don't think anyone is necessarily asking for a permanent display of BRG. The sensible approach would be to include it  as an option within the Instruments menu. Users can then choose to display it (along with GS, ETA XT etc) or choose not to display it!  Does that make sense?

Timwatson -- Just for the record, I started learning to fly in 1963 on Tiger Moths at Fairoaks, got my licence (eventually) in 1969 and I hold IMC, Night and Aerobatic ratings. As you will realise, GPS was a distant dream, and more the stuff of science fiction when I started flying, so I have seen it progress from its clunky beginnings to the current state of the art offerings. In addition to using SD, I also own, and still use (ocasionally), a Bendix King Skymap IIIc, so I'm not without some appreciation of these matters.

Mike
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+1. It is already shown on the DI instrument so someone must have felt it was a good idea. However it's just not in an ideal colour, in an ideal size and an ideal place on the screen to be as useful as it could be. As the TRK M instrument has no 'second function' (tap to change) then why not just pop it under there so if we want it, we can toggle between TRK M (which is the magenta line track and we may be WELL off that) and BRG which will give a rough steer to the waypoint. 

Sorry for digging up an old thread, but something occurred to me as I read through it. Just a little idea.

If one deviates significantly (whatever that might be) from the route, wouldn't it be nice if a rubber band similar to the normal route legs popped up between the aircraft and the next waypoint? A dynamic track to next point, if you will. Give it a different colour, but maybe let it keep the 'click for distance and direction' property.

What do you think?