By Tim Dawson - 8/29/2023 8:14:27 AM
As far as we can tell, the map posted above is not correct, and the borders and frequencies in SkyDemon are correct.
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By giannisd - 8/14/2023 5:09:57 PM
There are new FIC boundary in Italy and new frequency since July, but not yet implemented on the SD map. The new near Rome is important....Regards,
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By giannisd - 10/2/2023 3:12:05 PM
+xAs far as we can tell, the map posted above is not correct, and the borders and frequencies in SkyDemon are correct. The new FIC/FIS of Rome (centre) 119.075 will start on 15 June and will be published on the national AIP the 13 July, please note that the previous standard arr/dep route will be cancelled. AIP updating depends on the willingness of the ENAC employees.....   |
By giannisd - 10/18/2023 8:34:25 AM
+x+xThanks, we will look into this. I recall the FIC boundaries in Italy are traditionally very poorly documented in the AIP. I fell into this trap last week! Very often the wrong FIS frequency! Yes Tim the coordinates of the whole FIC are correct, but there is a NOTAM A6542/23 : LIBB LIMM LIRR Periodo (UTC): 11/09/23 11:18 - 09/12/23 23:59 (stimato) ROMA ACC AREA. ROMA FIC FREQ WITHIN AREA DESCRIBED IN NOTE (10) COLUMN RMK: - FREQ 125.750MHZ NOT AVAILABLE SOUTH OF LINE JOINING POINTS 420301N0111745E 421500N0112149E AND 421500N0134059E - FREQ 119.075MHZ NOT AVAILABLE NORTH OF LINE JOINING POINTS 420301N0111745E 421500N0112149E AND 421500N0134059E REF AIP ENR 2.1.1.2-3/4
that depict how to contact the FIS if you are north or south of this line dividing the FIC into 2 areas: south of this line pilots should use the freq 119.075, and north 126.750, so why not draw this LINE on your map and specify the two frequencies to be used on the flight information as per Note (10) column ?
regards, Gianni
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By Tim Dawson - 10/18/2023 9:15:53 AM
We don't usually make permanent changes to our map based on a NOTAM, which are by their nature temporary. If this becomes a permanent change it will make it into the AIP and at that point the permanent data in our chart will change. In the meantime, we are presumably showing the NOTAM in the briefing and therefore making the information available. If you have information about whether (and when) these changes are likely to become permanent, that would be useful.
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By giannisd - 10/18/2023 2:59:14 PM
+xWe don't usually make permanent changes to our map based on a NOTAM, which are by their nature temporary. If this becomes a permanent change it will make it into the AIP and at that point the permanent data in our chart will change. In the meantime, we are presumably showing the NOTAM in the briefing and therefore making the information available. If you have information about whether (and when) these changes are likely to become permanent, that would be useful. Tim, I can see on the Italy map, many NOTAM that are temporary over airports or areas like those for the Gliding Grand Prix (it was only for 10 days, I know because I made the NOTAM ! ). This NOTAM of the 2 frequencies is for 4 months, probably will be extended, and is related mainly to pilots heading to LIRU.
Another solution would be to include it, temporarily, on the "RADIO SERVICE of Roma Information", both frequencies with a reference to the NOTAM or with a synthetic instruction on how to choose the correct frequency, north or south when in that area.
The ATC of the Roma FIC will appreciate this effort since pilots navigating with SkyDemon (many) do not read NOTAM......or they use only the frequency depicted on the Radio Information: 125.750.
Is up to you, regards, Gianni
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By giannisd - 12/13/2023 10:15:23 PM
+xWe don't usually make permanent changes to our map based on a NOTAM, which are by their nature temporary. If this becomes a permanent change it will make it into the AIP and at that point the permanent data in our chart will change. In the meantime, we are presumably showing the NOTAM in the briefing and therefore making the information available. If you have information about whether (and when) these changes are likely to become permanent, that would be useful.  Tim,
the coordinates of the 4 FIS Areas of Rome and Brindisi are detailed on the REMARKS Section of ENR 2.1.1.2.2.1 page of AIP, and for each area the relative frequency to be used is also indicated.
The NOTAM is still in use, but now the coordinates and relative frequency are published on National AIP.
The depicted dotted green lines on Skydemon map should be amended accordingly, in particularly check the lines I have hilglited by a red arrows since on Skydemon map are different and not corret.
regards,
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By Tim Dawson - 12/14/2023 10:40:03 AM
Hello Gianne, the remarks section is indeed where we pull FIS boundaries in Italy from. You raised this point once before, and the map you attached to your post turned out to be incorrect. Can I ask where you obtained the map in your latest post from?
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By giannisd - 12/14/2023 11:39:14 AM
+xHello Gianni, the remarks section is indeed where we pull FIS boundaries in Italy from. You raised this point once before, and the map you attached to your post turned out to be incorrect. Can I ask where you obtained the map in your latest post from? An AIS company https://www.deskaeronautico.it/mappa/ then I add the freq and I draw the FIS lines just to show you the problem. The coordinates of the ROMA FIS areas available on the ENR 2.1.1.2.2.1 on the REMARKS. On the ENR 2.1.1 you'll find all the coordinates details of various FIC/FIS of all 3 FIR. Sometime are not very accurate but not big mistakes !  We have informed the AIP depertment about......
For istance the line dividing the 2 Roma FIS araeas SW 134.125 (Remarks 9) and S 129,575 is as per my map and not a vertical green dotted line as per your map.
Gianni
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By Tim Dawson - 12/18/2023 11:11:38 AM
Since the DeskAeronautico maps are not official, and have been shown to have errors in the past, we will not use them as a source for data. However, there has been a significant update to AIP Italy ready for the next AIRAC, and I will ask my colleague to recheck all the FIC boundaries in case they have changed.
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By Tim Dawson - 12/19/2023 11:26:00 AM
I've checked the Roma FIC boundaries for the forthcoming amendment and have made changes, as you suggested, so that the dividing line has moved in line with the map you posted. The other FIC areas are not well-defined (coordinates are not given) but we have done our best to align them with the Roma FIC areas.
Thank you for highlighting this to us.
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By giannisd - 1/6/2024 2:54:59 PM
+x[quote]I've checked the Roma FIC boundaries for the forthcoming amendment and have made changes, as you suggested, so that the dividing line has moved in line with the map you posted. The other FIC areas are not well-defined (coordinates are not given) but we have done our best to align them with the Roma FIC areas.
Thank you for highlighting this to us.
I see that the FIS boundaries are updated according to the AIP Note.
Excellent, but would it be possible to depict the Line indicated by the Notam ?Q)IXX/QCAXX/IV/BO/E/000/195/4236N01220E121 and indicate the frequency 119.075 MHz in addition to the 125.750 MHz in the "What's Here?" When I touch the screen?
Greetings,Gianni
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By Tim Dawson - 1/16/2024 10:02:26 AM
I don't have the tools to do those things. I can depict the NOTAM for the smaller, southern area, on the map which means you'll see a green dotted line. But in What's Here you'll see only the AIP information on the northern side and both the AIP and NOTAM information on the southern side. If you think it would be helpful for me to do that, I can do it.
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By giannisd - 1/18/2024 9:29:02 AM
+xI don't have the tools to do those things. I can depict the NOTAM for the smaller, southern area, on the map which means you'll see a green dotted line. But in What's Here you'll see only the AIP information on the northern side and both the AIP and NOTAM information on the southern side. If you think it would be helpful for me to do that, I can do it. Anything possible is better than nothing, slowly pilots will learn and use the correct frequency. I agree with you that our AIP staff are not too smart, but they don't have a flight license....
greetings, Gianni
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By Tim Dawson - 1/18/2024 10:17:03 AM
Ok, I've added the southern piece, let's see how it looks. It should show up shortly.
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By giannisd - 1/19/2024 3:07:05 PM
+xOk, I've added the southern piece, let's see how it looks. It should show up shortly. I liked! Let's see pilots' reactions....
Gianni
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By Tim Dawson - 1/8/2024 10:52:41 AM
We don't normally make changes to our permanent chart data that disagree with the AIP. Presumably this NOTAMed change will become part of the permanent AIP soon? At which point our chart data will be changed to reflect the change in FIS provision.
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By giannisd - 1/12/2024 9:54:21 AM
+xWe don't normally make changes to our permanent chart data that disagree with the AIP. Presumably this NOTAMed change will become part of the permanent AIP soon? At which point our chart data will be changed to reflect the change in FIS provision. The Notam probably will not be changed soon, the validity is till 03/march/2024 and as per last year I believe it will be renewed again and again....at every expiry date. But is it complicated for SD to write the 2 freq on the "What's Here" related to that FIS area? Gianni
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By Tim Dawson - 1/12/2024 10:18:57 AM
Potentially not, but the existing larger area (to the north) would still cover the smaller area to the south. If you think that would not be a problem, I could look at doing this.
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By giannisd - 1/15/2024 10:58:33 AM
+xPotentially not, but the existing larger area (to the north) would still cover the smaller area to the south. If you think that would not be a problem, I could look at doing this.
Another solution is to write the 2 frequencies in "What's Here" for the total area plus a "SEE NOTAM" note in the Roma Information Service tab, but in this way, you need to write the Notam.
Then when the Notam expires we will see what they decide.
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