By Tim Dawson - 1/5/2022 10:58:11 AM
It sounds like you're saying that France has published a certain class of data which pilots must use, in some situations, but only via one particular chart that needs to be purchased. This would be unusual. SkyDemon does not include enroute charts other than our own vector charts, as they are inflexible and always out of date.
There is little point in mentioning other apps that do include charts from third parties. We all know they exist.
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By Daniel_KDF - 1/5/2022 11:23:39 AM
+xIt's the map I was talking about. The 1/500000 IGN ICAO Map. It is only available from IGN. The official size of the towns are nowhere else available. You can freely access to the map through https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr/.IGN is the sole ICAO maps publisher to provide the information. Without the 1/500000 IGN ICAO map you just can't make sure that you are not braking the rule when overflying a town below 5000ft AGL.
One might want to add that you need to enter "Carte OACI VFR" in the search box on https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr to find & open the map.
This is how the color coding looks like:
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By tnowak - 1/5/2022 12:46:27 PM
This would be a useful chart to have available.Or, somehow, for SD to to depict town sizes in accordance with the map legend. This is one reason why I always take a French IGN paper chart with me when flying in France. Tony
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By KimW - 1/5/2022 3:28:28 PM
+xIt sounds like you're saying that France has published a certain class of data which pilots must use, in some situations, but only via one particular chart that needs to be purchased. This would be unusual. SkyDemon does not include enroute charts other than our own vector charts, as they are inflexible and always out of date.
There is little point in mentioning other apps that do include charts from third parties. We all know they exist. Question for you Tim. Skydemon depicts cities as area and towns with dots, is there a clear definition of the criteria of such classification. My ICAO map shows cities in area >2000 citizens and below as dots only. Does that corresponds with Skydemon vector maps or not? Next time flying in France I would then need to avoid overflying all cities depicted as an area (>2.000, hoping this follows the ICAO depiction in Skydemon, subject to Tim's verification) thus ensuring not to bust limits, alternatively bring the map specified for reference, but still using Skydemon as primary tool for planning and navigation. I imagine the only route Skydemon potentially could take, was to offer a depiction of cities more granular, in this case >10.000 and >100.000, however this would have to be a general classification by ICAO, but this seems to be a French classification only. I have not heard of any other country where there is altitude restrictions based on city size. Anyone? |
By tnowak - 1/6/2022 9:44:38 AM
I always carry a paper IGN chart with me when flying in France for the "town size" reason mentioned above.It would be great if SD could introduce an equivalent to the IGN chart...
Tony
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By Tim Dawson - 1/6/2022 10:29:26 AM
It looks like it's done on "mean width" of the town, goodness knows how that is calculated and whether we would even arrive at the same exact results as the other chart.
The way we decide on what town dots/blobs to display at what zoom levels is dynamic and depends on how built-up each area/country is.
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By C82R - 1/9/2022 7:23:05 PM
So anyway you now know why French PPL students are not encouraged to use SkyDemon.
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By Gerhard66 - 1/9/2022 7:42:35 PM
+xIt looks like it's done on "mean width" of the town, goodness knows how that is calculated and whether we would even arrive at the same exact results as the other chart.
The way we decide on what town dots/blobs to display at what zoom levels is dynamic and depends on how built-up each area/country is. As C82R mentioned („You can freely access to the map through https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr...“), IGN seems to have no financial interest in providing the data. One could ask IGN if they would be so nice and make the underlying data available as XML-File or similar…
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By BJS - 1/12/2022 11:36:25 AM
+x+xIt looks like it's done on "mean width" of the town, goodness knows how that is calculated and whether we would even arrive at the same exact results as the other chart.
The way we decide on what town dots/blobs to display at what zoom levels is dynamic and depends on how built-up each area/country is. As C82R mentioned („You can freely access to the map through https://www.geoportail.gouv.fr...“), IGN seems to have no financial interest in providing the data. One could ask IGN if they would be so nice and make the underlying data available as XML-File or similar… As other competitors already offer that, the data must be available in electronic format already. |
By Tim Dawson - 1/13/2022 9:48:01 AM
Do they? Or do they just offer that IGN static chart as a map background?
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By pgroell - 1/13/2022 10:33:03 AM
+xDo they? Or do they just offer that IGN static chart as a map background? The data, for personal use can be downloaded here (after having created an account). I am afraid these are only images of the maps, so no vectors, no alerts, no decluttering...
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By Tim Dawson - 1/14/2022 10:11:04 AM
I wonder how many towns there are that are categorised that way. We could certainly schedule a work item to make a list, but then we'd need to work out how to display them differently. France is rather unusual in colouring certain towns a certain way.
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By BJS - 1/14/2022 4:01:22 PM
+xI wonder how many towns there are that are categorised that way. We could certainly schedule a work item to make a list, but then we'd need to work out how to display them differently. France is rather unusual in colouring certain towns a certain way. AFAIK all towns in France are categorised on the IGN charts: yellow circles = 1700ft, yellow other than circle = 3000ft and orange areas = 5000ft minimum. |
By Gerhard66 - 1/14/2022 5:46:47 PM
+xI wonder how many towns there are that are categorised that way. We could certainly schedule a work item to make a list, but then we'd need to work out how to display them differently. France is rather unusual in colouring certain towns a certain way. You could display the vertical limits in virtual radar without confusing color codes. |
By grahamb - 1/14/2022 8:58:04 PM
+x+xI wonder how many towns there are that are categorised that way. We could certainly schedule a work item to make a list, but then we'd need to work out how to display them differently. France is rather unusual in colouring certain towns a certain way. You could display the vertical limits in virtual radar without confusing color codes. It’s not quite as simple as that, as the overflight minimum for the some installations and towns varies according to aircraft type. |
By BJS - 1/15/2022 10:40:46 AM
+xIt’s not quite as simple as that, as the overflight minimum for the some installations and towns varies according to aircraft type. Which to my knowledge is correct, but given the way Skydemon is built today, may mean a huge change effort for the software as it would make the chart depiction dependent on the aircraft profile chosen. I somehow doubt that is easily done. |
By Tim Dawson - 1/17/2022 9:12:16 AM
If this IGN chart colour codes the towns, how can that take into account the aircraft type?
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By Gerhard66 - 1/17/2022 9:17:40 AM
+xIf this IGN chart colour codes the towns, how can that take into account the aircraft type? As I understood, the town type is independent of aircraft type. Only the altitude is depending on town type and aircraft type.
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By C82R - 1/2/2022 10:20:31 AM
I'm a PPL instructor in France. A French regulation makes it mandatory to overfly cities and towns at a minimum height depending on the size of the town. The official regulation (arreté de 1957) says that the size of the town are shown on the IGN (Institut Geographique National) 1/500000 map. So I must in practice teach navigation with that IGN map as it is the only source of information available. As it is not available in Skydemon I just cannot recommend Skydemon to my students, and they go for SDVFR or Flymate instead. It's a shame as Skydemon is I think the best VFR navigation app. Once they get used to another app, they won't change.
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