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Flightplan route waypoints


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srayne
srayne
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According to the following no airport identifiers or placenames are allowed in a VFR or IFR flightplan:
From Eurocontrol: (ICAO Flightplan Form Basics)

ROUTE: A string of points (and connecting airways or DCTs where applicable) describing an ATS route or path of xes no more than 30 minutes flyying time or 200nm apart, including those points where a change of speed, level, track, or fliight rules is planned. Points can be listed by their coded designator (i.e. LN, MAY, HADDY), a 7 or 11-character representation of their coordinates (i.e. 46N078W, 4620N07805W), or a point relative to a reference point based on bearing and distance (i.e. DUB190040 being 40nm out on the 190 degree magnetic bearing from DUB).

From the CAA (CAP694)

SIGNIFICANT POINT (2 to 11 characters)
The coded designator (2 to 5 characters) assigned to the point (e.g. LN, MAY,
HADDY).
OR
if no coded designator has been assigned, one of the following ways:
• Degrees only (7 characters)
2 figures describing latitude in degrees, followed by N (North) or S (South),
followed by 3 figures describing longitude in degrees, followed by E (East) or
W (West). Make up the number of figures, where necessary, by insertion of
zeros (e.g. 46N078W);
• Degrees and Minutes (11 characters)
4 figures describing latitude in degrees and tens and units of minutes
followed by N (North) or S (South) followed by 5 figures describing longitude
in degrees and tens and units of minutes followed by E (East) or W (West).
Make up the correct number of figures, where necessary, by insertion of
zeros (e.g. 4620N07805W).
• Bearing and Distance from a Significant Point (9 characters)
The identification of the significant point followed by the bearing from the
point in the form of 3 figures giving degrees magnetic, followed by the
distance from the point in the form of 3 figures expressing nautical miles. In
areas of high latitude where it is determined by the appropriate authority that
reference to degrees magnetic is impractical, degrees true may be used.
Make up the correct number of figures, where necessary, by the insertion of
zeros (e.g. a point 180o magnetic at a distance of 40 nautical miles from VOR
'DUB' should be expressed as DUB180040);

ckurz7000
ckurz7000
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I fail to see where in your citation it says that you shouldn't use airport identifiers to designate significant points in the route field of your flight plan.

Thanks, -- Chris.
srayne
srayne
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ckurz7000 (02/02/2014)
I fail to see where in your citation it says that you shouldn't use airport identifiers to designate significant points in the route field of your flight plan.Thanks, -- Chris.


From CAP694 :
USE ONLY the conventions in 1) to 5) below, separating each sub-item by a space.....

ckurz7000
ckurz7000
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I read the relevant portion of CAP 694. It says to use only conventions 1) through 5) below. Convention 2) is the one you quoted in your post. That is the one applicable for specifying significant points. Where in it does it say that airport IDs are not to be used as designators for significant points?

It says explicitly to use the CODED DESIGNATOR (2 to 5 characters) assigned to the point. All ICAO airport designators have four characters and designate an aeronautical reference point which is arguably also significant to aeronautic navigation. Therefore it is perfectly fine to use the airport ID as a significant point.

-- Chris.

P.S.: I asked a controller working at Wien Tower, dealing with lots of flightplans (IFR and also VFR). He confirms my reading of the guidelines. He even goes one step further and says that Austro Control (the analog to the British CAA) mandates use of place names if available. Only when they are not available should you use geographical coordinates. He says that it is the same with specifying DEP and DEST in your flightplan. You are supposed to fill in the given designators of the departure and destination. Only when none is available should you use geographical coordinates (using DEP/ in the remarks field, for instance).
Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
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Significant points with designators can only be used in the route field because they are clearly defined in AIP ENR 4.x.

Although many four-letter airfield designators are defined in AIP AD, there are a huge number of these in many countries which are NOT defined in the AIP (except the location decode section). The positions of them are simply undefined, therefore any recipient of the flightplan performing machine reading of the plan (this is the critical part) would fail if such a designator were used.

As somebody else mentioned, the primary recipient of flightplans in Europe in Eurocontrol. If you attempt to put an airfield ICAO identifier in your route plan in such a flightplan, it will rightly be rejected.
ckurz7000
ckurz7000
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Tim, how often have you tried putting an airport ID in the route field of a flight plan? I have done it myself many times (VFR mainly but also IFR). They were all flightplans addresssed to Eurocontrol. None of them has been rejected for this reason yet.

Have you talked to an actual live controller about this? I have, several times to different controllers (wherever the opportunity arose in the past 1-2 years). None of them have told me otherwise. In fact, they all confirmed that they prefer published names over coordinates.

-- Chris.
Tim Dawson
Tim Dawson
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Yes, I have consulted many live controllers at NATS and other non-controllers at NATS whose job is entirely related to the reception and dissemination of flightplans.
lhe
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Tim, how often have you tried putting an airport ID in the route field of a flight plan? I have done it myself many times (VFR mainly but also IFR). They were all flightplans addresssed to Eurocontrol. None of them has been rejected for this reason yet.
I did that before posting my previous message. The flight plan was rejected.

This was the flight plan:
(FPL-SEMBN-IG
-C172/L-SDFGY/S
-ESKC2000
-N0104A025 DCT ESOW DCT
-ESSB0050 ESSA
-DOF/140201 ORGN/ESSAZPZX
-E/0300 P/1 R/E A/W)

...and this was the reply error message: "ERROR ROUTE130: UNKNOWN DESIGNATOR ESOW"

When I replaced "ESOW" with the id of a proper significant point the flight plan was accepted. (Well, of course I had to choose one which would form an acceptable route, but that is another matter...)

(And yes, ESOW is a proper airport. Scheduled services and all.)






ckurz7000
ckurz7000
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Very interesting indeed. I tried to access international flightplans of mine from last year off the homebriefing server but they weren't accessible anymore. However, the next one I file I'll post here just to prove that I wasn't dreaming. The only difference I can see is that mine didn't have the DCT acronym inserted in the route section. But I think it's doubtful this would make a difference.

-- Chris.
Edited 2/7/2014 12:33:41 PM by ckurz7000
lhe
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You must use DCT or a route designator for each segment of the route (except when you use geographical coordinates), otherwise the flight plan will again be rejected.

If you say that you have successfully submitted IFR flight plans using location indicators in the route section and without using DCT, then I suspect that your homebriefing provider corrected the flight plan (manually?) before being sending it on to the IFPS.

I was using the Swedish CAA flight plan submission system which sends IFR flight plans straight to the IFPS. VFR flight plans are sent to a briefing officer for manual checking and they can fix obvious errors such as omitting DCT. (Although one time when I submitted two VFR flight plans in succession with the same obvious error, they corrected the first one silently but called me to complain about the second one.)

Btw: I've never understood why DCT is required. There can be no ambiguity if you omit it and there would be less to write...
GO

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