By Tim Dawson - 12/18/2017 10:49:33 AM
We will not be bringing the Flight Details tab back.
However, if we have made some actions needlessly hard to get to, we can certainly rectify that, we just need to understand exactly which actions are being requested. Many of the people complaining about the lack of flight details tab are trying to see the flight time or distance, and simply haven't noticed those details are now permanently displayed at the top of the screen, for example. Setting the aircraft for a flight is something you do once (if at all) and therefore we don't think an additional touch to access it is a huge deal. So, is it setting the fuel? The weight and balance?
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By plume_tray - 12/18/2017 11:08:17 AM
For me, I liked the Flight Details tab. It provided essential functionality to get my work done. It's been replaced with the Warnings tab, which is pointless. Never gonna use it. You could have combined warnings somehow within Notams tab which are essentially warnings themselves. Pilots will always use Notams tab if they are sensible but likely ignore the Warnings tab because they include alerts about airspace etc (who cares, I planned the route so I should know which airspace is being used).
The issue seems to be within planning mode, where I need user friendly and consistent access to setting up my aircraft. I don't want to just have 1-click access to my fuel and W&B but still need to drill down many layers of menus to pick my aircraft. It should all be together. One without the other just wouldn't work. Additional touch is a huge deal.
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By Tim Dawson - 12/18/2017 1:22:22 PM
Thank you for your insight into what pilots will do. However, we have some perspective on this ourselves. Please do not assume we make these changes lightly, or for no good reason.
How many times do you typically pick your aircraft for a route you're planning?
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By grahamb - 12/19/2017 1:02:50 PM
+xThank you for your insight into what pilots will do. However, we have some perspective on this ourselves. Please do not assume we make these changes lightly, or for no good reason. How many times do you typically pick your aircraft for a route you're planning?
A bit of a dismissive tone there, if you don't mind me saying, Tim. 
In your last Newsletter you wrote:
"While planning your flight we generate warnings for penetration of controlled or dangerous airspace, planning below MSA, and a few other things. These warnings have always been displayed in the Flight Details tab but unfortunately many people do not know about that tab. We have therefore brought them out into their own Warnings tab, which serves as an excellent reference while planning a flight to quickly check that the hazards we’re telling you about are hazards you’re aware of"
I'd be interested in knowing how you assessed that 'many people' didn't know about the flight details tab? It was so intrinsic to the workflow in setting up the parameters for a route - like date and time - that I find it quite difficult to understand (or even believe) that a great number of people weren't aware of its existence and would thus miss potential warnings.
I would suggest that the same people who couldn't find where to put the date and time of their flight previously will have even greater difficulty finding it two levels down in the Route menu.
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By Tim Dawson - 12/19/2017 4:06:28 PM
On the contrary, if somebody's desire is to set route parameters like takeoff time, speed etc, then the Route menu is an obvious first choice if someone doesn't know about the Flight Details tab.
Yes, a huge percentage of our user base have/had no idea about the existence of the Flight Details tab. Nobody wishes this weren't the case more than us. Work a day on the customer support phone in our office and you quickly get a very specific insight into the capabilities of the average SkyDemon user, and our every effort (daily) goes into making life easier for those users.
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By plume_tray - 12/20/2017 1:09:45 PM
+xOn the contrary, if somebody's desire is to set route parameters like takeoff time, speed etc, then the Route menu is an obvious first choice if someone doesn't know about the Flight Details tab. Yes, a huge percentage of our user base have/had no idea about the existence of the Flight Details tab. Nobody wishes this weren't the case more than us. Work a day on the customer support phone in our office and you quickly get a very specific insight into the capabilities of the average SkyDemon user, and our every effort (daily) goes into making life easier for those users.
By helping one set of users, and disarming another by removing a well used shortcut!
This may not be an issue for some pilots who perhaps fly once a week, but some of us fly for a living on a daily basis and every effort goes into streamlining our operation, whether its the pre-flight planning, enroute flight management or post-flight debriefing.
The process is less efficient now and workflow is broken up (I just learned GAR filing has moved too). Shortcuts are very important to us, especially when we use them a lot throughout the day (we may have to plan multiple flights per day, using different aircraft, using different payloads & different fuel amounts) - multiply that for a big company with lots of users.
The Flight Details tab was like a "Go To" for the entire setup of a flight. It even had a big green button, easier to use with big fingers than the top menu, also its placement on the screen meant you didn't have to reach too far with your right thumb/finger, now you definitely have to lift your hand to reach the menu. As some of the original Flight Details elements are split, it means more touch actions per flight (drilling up/down through Route menu, back/forth Warnings tab).
These workflow issues need to be addressed, like the "Close" button on the W&B screen needs to change to a "Back" button to return you to Flight Details and not kick you out to the map screen (assuming this is just a bug and not intentional).
To clarify, I think the Skydemon product is great. I love the new "route auto save to cloud" feature, though thats been on my wishlist for a longtime (I wish it could have been extended to aircraft and user waypoints). In my opinion, the Flight Details change was a knee jerk reaction and could have been better implemented, considering Skydemon's history with excellent design choices in the past.
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By MikeTwoOne - 12/20/2017 8:47:17 PM
+xWork a day on the customer support phone in our office and you quickly get a very specific insight into the capabilities of the average SkyDemon user, and our every effort (daily) goes into making life easier for those users. If I work a day on the customer support, I will interact with a minority of users, unless every single user pings you on a regular basis, something I do not really believe. The silent majority was perfectly fine with the previous approach. To make life easier for some users, you broke a well designed workflow into inconsistent pieces. If something is not understood by some, it needs a better explanation to enable the so-called "average user", not a giant step back which impacts all others. SD UI and menus structure is massively complex already, so removing one of the most valuable (and logical) tab won't make the product easier. M |
By Tim Dawson - 12/21/2017 12:14:12 PM
I have asked for specific examples of workflow in this thread more than once, and unfortunately nobody has provided them. I think that is telling. We are very sensitive to workflow and efficient user interface - more than most companies in fact - and if there's a change which has negatively impacted a user's workflow we need to know about that workflow with examples.
Plume_tray. In you last post you complain that you are having to go back and forth between the Route menu and the Warnings tab. In your previous post you described the Warnings tab as "pointless" and said you were "never gonna use it". I appreciate your are frustrated but this sort of incoherent feedback simply isn't going to get us anywhere.
Mike, our interactions with customers through our support channels are dozens of times more representative than the posts on this forum. It is interesting that you feel the handful of opinions voiced on here is more powerful than the much larger group of customers we interact with on a daily basis through those channels.
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By plume_tray - 12/21/2017 1:27:58 PM
Tim, as I said I just found out that GAR filing now via the Warnings tab instead of Flight Details, hence the back & forth.
To answer your request, typical workflow consists of:
Flight Planning:
1.1) Create route using map
1.2) Select aircraft (occasionally check Empty W&B figures are correct compared to W&B Schedule)
1.3) If it's a quote, then set zero wind, (may be across multiple aircraft types)
1.4) Get total flight time
1.5) Calculate fuel requirements, and W&B, which then determines if
1.6) Route may need tweaking for extra fuel stop(s), means back & forth to fuel/W&B figures, and check new total flight
1.7) Route may need new user waypoint(s) (helicopter landing site), using postcode search etc and tweak using satellite view, saving user waypoints to cloud each time so consistent across my iPad and iPhone.
1.8) Set Land Here (creating multiple sectors)
1.9) For each sector, set takeoff times, fuel & W&B figures
1.10) Check Plog (each sector)
1.11) Tweak Altitudes if required due to MSA (IFR), Airspace, best Altitude for Flight etc
1.12) Save route (this may occur at various stages above too)
Before departure:
2.1) Open route (as may not already be open) and check all figures are completed and correct (aircraft, fuel, W&B, flight times) for each sector
2.2) Check Notams and Wx (this may force last minute route changes due to RA(T) etc)
2.3) Create Briefing Pack(s) for the main passenger sector(s) and share via email to Ops
2.4) Check charts & airfield plates up to date
2.5) copy W&B figures (aircraft tech log for each sector - Part-CAT requirement)
2.6) copy initial fuel figures (for aircraft tech log)
2.7) Submit GAR (if required)
2.8) Submit Flight Plan (if required)
End of flight:
3.1) Before pressing "Stop navigating", take screenshot of Pilot Log to capture the ATA for each sector (this is an area where the Debriefing Pack could be improved to include a decent Plog with post-flight details)
That's all fine until customer makes last minute changes to route, timings, passenger details, and sometimes aircraft.
That's all I can think of from the top of my head. Just hopes it's constructive enough for you to see why the workflow is now less efficient.
It would very easy to say something like "why don't I change the order of some of the above to combine tasks", however it's not as simple as that, and often these actions are quite quick (for me at least). Figures require continued cross-checking.
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By MikeTwoOne - 12/21/2017 1:51:41 PM
+xIt is interesting that you feel the handful of opinions voiced on here is more powerful than the much larger group of customers we interact with on a daily basis through those channels. I never said that, sorry if it was your understanding. The ones I call "the silent majority" are the happy users who never reached the support (and have no clue about this forum). Anyway, I will now mostly use support to interact with the team if I want to raise my voice. I did it to provide my workflow examples and the discussion was definitely not as complicated as it is here, which is alway a better experience for a customer. M |
By Tim Dawson - 12/21/2017 3:10:32 PM
Plume_tray, thank you, that is very helpful. I hadn't realised you were a corporate user; please feel free to liaise directly with your corporate licensing contact at SkyDemon about your specific needs as we do appreciate that workflow is likely to be different from leisure pilots, which of course make up the majority of our user base.
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By grahamb - 1/3/2018 4:12:18 PM
I've just installed the latest Beta. which addresses this issue in an elegant way.
I can only test it on my iPhone, but so far, so good - Thanks Tim!
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By rafale52 - 1/3/2018 5:26:48 PM
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By plume_tray - 1/26/2018 3:41:04 PM
v3.9.1 (iOS) does indeed resolve the problem, by providing one-touch access (shortcut) on the distance/time bubble at the top of the screen.
W&B menu navigation (back button) is now consistent too. Which is also a much appreciated fix.
Thank you to Tim and the SD team for listening to the feedback.
P.S Any chance of adding a Close button on the top right corner of the W&B menu? On the iPad you can just touch the map to exit the menu, but on iPhone the menu covers the entire screen. Sometimes, we need to make quick last minute alterations to W&B for multiple sectors and this would be another handy shortcut.
Edit: Is there a way to edit the title of this thread to mark it as RESOLVED?
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By derWessi - 1/28/2018 4:00:59 PM
I think you found a good solution. Just one question: I'm missing the landing time in the current implementation (android). Would it be possible to write it underneath the start time (if set)?
Thanks again,
Andreas
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By Tim Dawson - 1/29/2018 12:00:45 PM
We've had a couple of such reports from users with certain Android devices, but haven't managed to reproduce it ourselves yet. Screenshots would help, along with a description of the device and its physical size.
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By derWessi - 1/29/2018 3:28:32 PM
+xWe've had a couple of such reports from users with certain Android devices, but haven't managed to reproduce it ourselves yet. Screenshots would help, along with a description of the device and its physical size. 
Sony SGP611 Xperia Z3 Tablet Compact (8", 1200 x 1920 px)
Loks the same on my honor 8 (5,2", 1920 x 1080 px)
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By Tim Dawson - 1/30/2018 12:32:30 PM
Oh, sorry, I misread your previous post. We are trying to keep that screen concise but you'll find landing time in the PLOG which is of course one touch away.
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By rg - 1/30/2018 12:40:53 PM
Would be better on this screen
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By derWessi - 1/30/2018 2:02:11 PM
+xOh, sorry, I misread your previous post. We are trying to keep that screen concise but you'll find landing time in the PLOG which is of course one touch away.
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By ArnaudC - 2/20/2018 10:22:15 AM
I concur with the previous posters, I quite like the new layout as well.
Good job.
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By Air - 4/15/2018 8:32:07 PM
It was better with the flight details tab. Removing the tab was a step backwards.
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By plume_tray - 12/15/2017 9:12:12 AM
Having played around today with 3.9 (iOS), I do miss the Flight Details tab for 1-click access.
I use it quite a lot not just for W&B but also to set aircraft, set takeoff time, view flight time (on iPhone, though this is now on main map like on iPad so not an issue), and set fuel. I guess this is more important when planning than in flight.
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By ArnaudC - 1/16/2018 5:25:49 PM
I quite liked the flight details tab.
I'm in the process of figuring out if I want to buy an airplane, and trying to reduce the shortlist, or keep renting but maybe more types.
A lot of plans are of the type "Next time I want to go there, can I do it in plane A/B/C? in 1/2/3 legs? How much fuel? what cost?..."
So I have a bunch of aircraft profiles, and keep switching. The flight details tab was very practical for this.
An irritating part is that the PC version is unchanged with the flight details at the bottom right, apparently my brain cannot handle 2 workflows.
+x Let's give it the benefit of the doubt and try.
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